Any information about the Pacific Palisades Fire

[daepp]

Originally Posted by pmax

A date for my press release is New Year’s Day, January 1. So was there a fire a week earlier? An earlier arson maybe? Or was date wrong?

[group911@aol.co]

Not sure how to phrase it to get through to you. What's the magic number of rigs you envision to rush to the scene in minutes? 50, 100??? Haven't looked at their stations but I'll bet there weren't more than 10 pumpers within 15 miles. That's probably 20- 30 minutes of response time for the farthest one and then setup time. This fire grew faster than those first 10 and the next 30 could have stopped even if they'd had adequate water.
A fool would have run all those rigs to the top of the canyon straight into the fire.
To answer your question, the system was designed to provide sufficient water for normal firefighting needs. These were not normal firefighting conditions and no, you couldn't have designed a system to handle these conditions.
I'll say it again. You can't stop a wind driven fire here of "anywhere else in the world"!

Originally Posted by fintstone

I don't understand how running out of water to fight a fire is not an issue in the fire not being contained or what having hundreds of reservoirs that did not provide water to the area that ran out (where the fire originated) makes a difference.

If "more rigs earlier would have only emptied the system earlier" as noted earlier, then why was the "system" not designed to provide sufficient water?

It seems to me that if a sufficient number of resources arrived quickly to fight the Palisades fire (including water which ran out quickly), I cannot see why it could not be extinguished before it became too large to fight. Even more so if not for the massive amount of dry scrub/growth allowed in the area.

If fires in CA are impossible to prevent or fight (unlike everywhere else in the world), I cannot imagine living there. If indeed that is actually the case, perhaps the state should not allow anyone to rebuild and depopulate what remains. It is just too dangerous. Make the state (or at least the LA metro area) a giant national park?

[Scott Douglas]

I think that's the New Year's eve fire they're investigating as the source. I think they're looking at buried embers that would have been activated by the winds and flaring up again.

All speculation on my part as I'm not really following this stuff closely. Too depressing.

[schwarz633]

Does this Santa Inez reservoir that everyone is talking about contain treated water that's fed directly into the distribution system, or does it need to be treated first? I'm in the Midwest, so I'm not familiar with this type of pond style reservoir in a municipal water system.

[group911@aol.co]

BTW, for all you folks that think California got it all wrong, call your local municipality or RFD and ask them what their water supply looks like. I'd venture to guess that anybody living outside a city has neither adequate firefighting resources nor water supplies to fight anything greater than a normal structure fire.

[Cajundaddy]

Originally Posted by Scott Douglas

One chopper dropping maybe 300 gallons of water is not going to do much, even with no winds, in that dry brush.

My point exactly. Simply too little too late to knock it down.

According to NOAA the maximum sustained winds were 29 mph between LAX and the Palisades until 5pm when the windspeed increased greatly overnight. Air Attack assets are able to operate pretty well in these conditions right up until sundown when things got real sporty. They just didn't get on it quickly enough to avoid the firestorm that ensued.

[greglepore]

Originally Posted by group911@aol.co

BTW, for all you folks that think California got it all wrong, call your local municipality or RFD and ask them what their water supply looks like. I'd venture to guess that anybody living outside a city has neither adequate firefighting resources nor water supplies to fight anything greater than a normal structure fire.

Mine is zero. Bring in the tankers (as my Pa Dutch fire chiefs used to say "roll the tonkers) . Lots of folks live/build that way. Just not on top of each other.
Closest pond to draft from is only a quarter mile away, but if I have fire here I'm done.

[Baz]

CNN's Kyung Lah speaks with firefighters in California who have been sounding the alarm about staffing shortages as the state grapples with a major fire disaster.

[speeder]

Originally Posted by Cajundaddy

My point exactly. Simply too little too late to knock it down.

According to NOAA the maximum sustained winds were 29 mph between LAX and the Palisades until 5pm when the windspeed increased greatly overnight. Air Attack assets are able to operate pretty well in these conditions right up until sundown when things got real sporty. They just didn't get on it quickly enough to avoid the firestorm that ensued.

I apologize for being snippy upstream on this thread. Tempers are running short around here among unimaginable heartbreak...and I'm talking about people like me who did not even lose their house.

This thing will be autopsied to death in the coming months and years and heads will roll. As high as the fire danger was, and it was off the charts, I think it's fair to say that no one saw this coming. The Pacific Palisades are gone and a lot of history and landmarks went with it. It's an almost incalculable loss and that's not even including Altadena which was almost as bad but the entire town was not wiped out. It's a living nightmare.

I do not remember the exact sequence of events because it was such a dynamic situation in the beginning and exactly when the wind speeds were at their maximum. I only remember that air support was badly needed and not able to fly either on Tuesday or Wednesday when the fires were burning absolutely out of control.

As for the empty reservoir in the Palisades, there are always a lot of empty ones here. They are all over the place and exist for drinking/household water, not really for fire fighting. There has never been a situation that I can remember where water supply was the limiting factor in fighting a fire and we have a lot of wildfires here. There are a lot of other limiting factors, mainly dryness and wind.

The same thing that gives us such a great climate in general here, (low humidity), greatly exacerbated this fire. We get basically zero rain for 8 months out of the year and then count on winter rain and snow at higher elevations to replenish supplies as well as reduce fire risk. This winter, it has rained exactly zero times in Los Angeles with the exception of a couple of light drizzles. This is what I mean by a climate caused event and that is NOT POLITICAL in any way. The climate in general in Southern California is very amenable to wildfires and we will not discuss whether that is getting worse right now. Not the right time or place.

Like I said, this will be studied and analyzed to death and many heads will roll.

[speeder]

Absolutely no one imagined the Palisades, a residential area on bluffs above the ocean, burning to the ground. Malibu? Yes, happens all the time in the hills but I cannot remember ever when beach houses and restaurants all incinerated from wind-driven embers.

[VINMAN]

Originally Posted by group911@aol.co

BTW, for all you folks that think California got it all wrong, call your local municipality or RFD and ask them what their water supply looks like. I'd venture to guess that anybody living outside a city has neither adequate firefighting resources nor water supplies to fight anything greater than a normal structure fire.

Plenty of urban interface areas within minutes of major cities here that require tanker supplied water. There are tons of multi million dollar Mcmansion developments that are not supplied by hydrants.

.

[speeder]

Can you imagine people in CA. telling people in Kansas or Oklahoma that they really fk'ed up their tornado preparedness? Yeah, me neither.

[Rot 911]

Originally Posted by speeder

Can you imagine people in CA. telling people in Kansas or Oklahoma that they really fk'ed up their tornado preparedness? Yeah, me neither.

Yeah, except you now got people in LA telling people in LA that they really fk’ed up their fire preparedness.

[speeder]

Originally Posted by Rot 911

Yeah, except you now got people in LA telling people in LA that they really fk’ed up their fire preparedness.

Fair enough.

[Cajundaddy]

Originally Posted by speeder

I apologize for being snippy upstream on this thread. Tempers are running short around here among unimaginable heartbreak...and I'm talking about people like me who did not even lose their house.

Apology accepted Denis. Tempers and emotions are running hot right now and I get that.

I was born and raised in SoCal and lived there for 65 years. Half of my friends are CAL FIRE or LEO and though many have now retired, several young cats were on the fire line in Alta Dena. One of them is a Captain in Sierra Madre and said he did not sleep for 3 days during the worst of it. Another retired out of Air Attack as Battalion Chief and he is PISSED that so little prep was done knowing how tinder dry the vegetation was all over SoCal with maximum heavy winds coming.

You are right that none of them imagined that things would get so far out of control. Once the winds rose to 70mph, they basically had one job and that was to get people out of the way before the fire raged through their house. I think we can count this part as a success with only 25 deaths so far.

Having dinner tonight with a neighbor who is retired LAPD Rampart District. She has some stories to tell.

Peace and better days!

[jyl]

Originally Posted by Danimal16

It absolutely depends on how much water is in the reservoir. Yes distribution and transmission deficiencies will seriously impact the availability at the point of use, especially in the high velocity/high volume case of a fire flow.

The other issue on storage is where the storage is. In zone storage is imperative to maintaining gravity flow that is so essential to a properly designed system that can meet fire flow. It is a fools game to design to deadhead firefly to pressure zones when needed. Gravity flow is your friend in a fire.

I think reservoir capacity doesn’t matter if pipe capacity is limited.

Sure, more reservoirs mean you can run firehoses for longer. Like, after the fire has burned to the ocean, you can still run firehoses. And that makes a difference how?

[group911@aol.co]

So you think they should keep a few hundred helicopters and their crews on standby 24/7? If not, how long do you think it takes to mobilize them? Most of the choppers carry about 2000 gallons of water. Looks good on video but pretty much nothing on a fast moving fire.

Originally Posted by Cajundaddy

My point exactly. Simply too little too late to knock it down.

According to NOAA the maximum sustained winds were 29 mph between LAX and the Palisades until 5pm when the windspeed increased greatly overnight. Air Attack assets are able to operate pretty well in these conditions right up until sundown when things got real sporty. They just didn't get on it quickly enough to avoid the firestorm that ensued.

[Tobra]

NOBODY hates California.


We hate the people running California

Originally Posted by Crowbob

Nothing will change as long as the people responsible for mismanaging this disaster are not held accountable.

So nothing will change.

Originally Posted by Danimal16

I will make the point with anyone that the issues we face in California when it comes to the operation and maintenance of water infrastructure AND the use of water resources is absolutely a matter of bad public policy rather than ANYTHING else.

Wait a minute, this can't be true, because this is what I have been saying for 30 years

Originally Posted by greglepore

The primary way to fight a forest or brush fire of large magnitude is to cut or bulldoze large firebreaks, and you're not doing that in the LA hills.

Not doing it because of what Danimal mentions above.

Originally Posted by Danimal16

Denis, I need to jump in here as this is not accurate. But before I do, the final word on what operationally went wrong will need to be further sorted in the future.

I have a career's worth of experience in the design and operation of water systems, both retail and wholesale, think State Water Project contractor.

The questions that will need to be sorted and I do not have detailed knowledge of, is the storage standards, the age and size of the existing "local" in system transmission and the distribution system. Old developments to State Standards and NOT to modern standards such as those developed by the ISO (Insurance Services Office) AWWA (American Waterworks Association) and others. These standards, I am sure, have further changed since I retired in 2005. But again, this is something that needs to be seriously examined AND acted on; not ignored or covered up as in the past.

My most immediate concern has to do with the reported storage in the area. What I am hearing is that the entire fire area only had 3 MG of storage and had the 117 MG Santa Ynez Reservoir off line. I find it had to believe that there was only 3MGs available as with that size of service area, 3MG is not very much. That is where I think further investigation will clarify. A 117 MG reservoir that is off line, especially since the wet season has not started, is really disturbing.

Also, if the backbone system cannot readily transmit water from one part of the zone to the other, this will impact fire fighting supply at the critical point of demand.

The lack of adequate fire storage physically in each hydraulic zone (and this exists in older systems) is also a serious deficiency. Gravity is your friend and you can NEVER pump enough to meet fire flow requirements in a retail municipal distribution system in a fire flow demand situation.

My huge sadness of what has happened in the Palisades and Alta Dena does not completely eliminate my desire to find out what has caused these problems, the adequacy of the existing infrastructure and the operation of that infrastructure.

It is imperative to start the failure analysis now, and not let the potential deficiencies be once again overlooked/ignored and not corrected. This has been the case in the past.

You have far too many points of agreement with me to know what you are talking about.

Originally Posted by Rot 911

Yeah, except you now got people in LA telling people in LA that they really fk’ed up their fire preparedness.

That, and Californians are extremely likely to be critical of people in "flyover country"

[RANDY P]

Good luck ever getting insurance there. CA has chased away any and all insurance companies. Your home (if standing) now unsellable. It can't be insured.

If it can't be insured, it can't be financed- you are cash only and good luck getting a reasonable buyer. Nor can it be rebuilt- unless you pay out of pocket.

You CAN blame the CA govt for that.

rjp

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by fintstone

I don't understand how running out of water to fight a fire is not an issue in the fire not being contained or what having hundreds of reservoirs that did not provide water to the area that ran out (where the fire originated) makes a difference.

If "more rigs earlier would have only emptied the system earlier" as noted earlier, then why was the "system" not designed to provide sufficient water?

It seems to me that if a sufficient number of resources arrived quickly to fight the Palisades fire (including water which ran out quickly), I cannot see why it could not be extinguished before it became too large to fight. Even more so if not for the massive amount of dry scrub/growth allowed in the area.

If fires in CA are impossible to prevent or fight (unlike everywhere else in the world), I cannot imagine living there. If indeed that is actually the case, perhaps the state should not allow anyone to rebuild and depopulate what remains. It is just too dangerous. Make the state (or at least the LA metro area) a giant national park?

Originally Posted by speeder

Are you to be taken seriously or is this just a trolling exercise? You don’t think that they are fighting this fire?

The water pressure issue has been sufficiently explained several times…it was a water volume issue. Not enough water anywhere to fight this using hydrants alone. Planes and helicopters could not fly.

California has the best wildfire fighters in the world.

While I agree that running out of water while fighting a fire is a "volume" issue, I do not understand why one might believe that running out does not cause a volume issue. One can easily calculate volume flow...but it goes to zero when the supply runs out.

Obviously, it was pretty impossible to fight such a large fire once it got out of control (covered hundreds of acres) and they were out of water. If they had arrived earlier with sufficient resources, the outcome would have been different.

According to firefighters, they did not have enough personnel, equipment, or water...and they arrived almost an hour too late. I don't blame them.