Bear Rifles
 

O.k., so Steve asked over on the thread about the recent bear attack in B.C. just what might constitute a "bear rifle". Well, you guys know me... I might like to talk about guns every now and then... So, rather than dilute that thread, I thought I would share my opinion on the matter.

There are as many opinions regarding what might constitute a "bear rifle" as there are bear hunters. My choice is not definitive, but it did work for me. While I've shot a number of black bear (when they presented an opportunity) with whatever I had in my hands at the time when out deer or elk hunting, I always carried this when out after the big guys. It's a Winchester Model 70, one of the reintroduced "pre-64" models produced in the early '90's. I actually traded a real pre-'64 in the same caliber (and got a pretty good wad of cash in addition to this rifle) that had just become too valuable. That, and the stock just killed me, with too much drop at the comb along with a checkered steel buttplate. Scoping it meant holding my cheek way too high up, almost off of the comb, so the darn thing got a pretty good "running start" at me, much like a Mike Tyson upper cut.

I've equipped it with a Leupold 1.5 x 4 power scope, which is perfect for those river bottom alder thickets where we often go after these animals. I don't think I've ever actually turned it up off of its lowest setting. Anyway, I like the synthetic stock for the constant rain out on the coast where I used to go. I only wish it were stainless steel as well, but that was not available when I purchased this rifle. Without further ado:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1764185371.jpg

My caliber of choice is the grand old .375 Holland and Holland Magnum, dating from 1912. Pretty much the original belted magnum, the belt actually serves a purpose on this one, as it serves to provide positive headspace on its extremely tapered case. That taper serves a vital role as well, allowing this to feed like butter from a magazine, and then the extract easily as well (which is often a concern on straighter walled cases in extreme tropical heat).

The traditional bullet weights are 235, 270, and 300 grains. 235 spitzers for open country lighter big game, 270 spitzers for bigger animals (like elk and moose), and 300's (usually solids, with round nosed soft points as an option) for the really big stuff up close. Myself, when Sierra introduced their 300 grain spitzer boat tail, I saw it as a "do all" for everything (except in places where my guide demanded I used solids).

Here is a loaded round and the 300 grain Sierra alongside a typical 180 grain (also a Sierra boat tailed spitzer) .30-'06 for comparison. I get just under 2,600 fps using IMR 4350 or Winchester 760, so it's right there, velocity wise, with the typical 180 grain .30-'06 load, but offers a very useful increase in bullet weight. Tough bullet, too, as I have never succeeded in recovering one from an animal. Full penetration, all the way through, always an exit wound regardless of the size of the critter or the angle at which I shot it (including the ubiquitous "Texas heart shot" on some elk-sized animals).

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1764185371.jpg

All in all just a fantastic hunting cartridge. I have two other rifles so chambered, a K98 Mauser with the traditional three leaf shallow deep vee rear sight and big white bead front, and a #1 Tropical Rifle with a Skinner peep sight. Those two are my "Sunday going to meeting" rifles, used when I travelled out of country and wanted to show up with something fancier than a "plastic stocked" M70.

I'll probably never use any of these again, but I will always hang onto them. Too many memories. Besides, my sons will get them when I'm gone. Here are all three, with the Winchester (in the middle) wearing, temporarily, absolutely the wrong stock for its intended purpose. Kind of a short-live union, it's long since back in the composite stock.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1764186523.jpg

Interesting. I feel like I've also heard you talk about some sort of 44 or 45 (45-70, 45-90, 45-110 or something like that, I think there are a few sizes) that was made for rifles. I assume the rounds above likely have better, long range ballistics so are better for hunting?
And out of curiosity, if a bear burst out of the brush headed at you, how capable would something like a 12ga slug be. I assume those are big, heavy, and slow, but with enough mass to hit like a ton of bricks. I would think at close-ish range, a 12ga slug would be a fairly nasty beast against just about anything smaller than a car.

My suggestion in the other thread was the Marlin 45-70. Short length for easy handling in the alder thickets Jeff described, lever action for perhaps a rapid 2nd shot, an ass kicker out to maybe 100 yards. I'd keep it scopeless. Factory ammo...I'd have to see what's available.

https://www.marlinfirearms.com/s/model_1895trapper/

Jeff's hunting days behind him because of changing Wash. State laws...mine because of age & physical limitations. I've started giving my firearms away to select people.

I like these, now affiliated with Ruger.

I'v been considering the 357 Mag. Have kicked myself for years for selling my Browning B92 in that caliber.

Yup, the venerable old .45-70 in a modern lever gun is an extremely popular combination these days for use on big animals in close cover. It dates from 1873 when it was originally loaded in the Trapdoor Springfield with cast lead bullets and black powder. Original loads pushed a 500 grain bullet to about 1,200 fps and a 400 grain to about 1,350. Modern high pressure smokeless loads will push 400 grain bullets to about 2,000 fps. These are only safe in modern rifles, like Marlin 1895 and newly manufactured Winchester Model 1886 rifles. The Ruger #1 is also available in .45-70 and suited for these heavy loads as well. This is, however, a relatively short range combination, maybe out to 150 yards or so before its looping trajectory becomes a hinderance.

Here are my pair of modern .45-70 lever guns, set up just as Paul suggests, with peep sights. This works really well in thick woods and the like. I've found it very effective on the animals that I've shot with it. The top one is an 1895 Marlin, bottom is a Winchester 1886.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1764192451.jpg

Here is the load I use, again compared to the .30-'06. The bullet is cast from wheel weights in an RCBS mold and weighs about 410 grains. I can get this thing going about 2,000 fps from these rifles. The recoil is absolutely brutal, though, even worse than my Ruger #1 in .458 Winchester Magnum. The rifles are somewhat light and the buttstocks are too narrow. I've backed way off on my load, down to about 1,700 fps, with no noticeable loss in effectiveness but a whole lot more pleasant to shoot.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1764192451.jpg

And yes, the 12 gauge slug is an extremely popular and effective bear defense combination. No one really hunts with it, due to its range limitations, but when it's close enough that that doesn't matter, few things hit harder. Lots of fishermen carry short barreled, pistol grip shotguns on the bear streams.

There are several lengths of cartridges that share that basic .45 caliber straight case, all dating from the black powder days. The .45-70 is the shortest at a case length of 2.1". Next up is the .45-90 at 2.4", then the .45-100 at 2.6", then the .45-110 at 2 7/8", and finally the .45-120 at 3.25". All but the .45-70 are too long to cycle through modern lever guns, except the Winchester 1886 can accept the .45-90. The rest are used exclusively in single shots.

Here are the .45-70, .45-90, and .45-100. The .45-70 and 90 are loaded with 400 grain hunting bullets, the .45-100 with a 540 grain match bullet. A .223 and .45 ACP are included for comparison.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1764193151.jpg

I have a Marlin 1894 csbl .357 , stainless, grey laminate stock, Ruger made. Would this work?

What a cool rifle! On my "short list" for sure. It would make a very effective deer rifle for close range, heavy cover hunting. Unfortunately, however, not nearly enough to rely upon it for protection from large bears. It just doesn't have the power and penetration to get through their thick skulls, nor their thick hides and heavy layers of fat.

Of course we could get back to the advice given by a guide in Alaska, who recommended the lowly .22 for bear defense - "just kneecap your partner...".

My nephew thought a .338 Lapua was what was needed. I thought it was overkill... but it does the job!

Your nephew loves $pending money on ammo?

All of above is strictly speculative for me...my days of packing a rifle through the brush are long gone. I've just returned from a PT session at the local hospital...trying to learn to walk again...next step to ditch the walker for a cane. Training with the cane, the PT holding on to a strap around me, I made a little over 100 feet in 3 minutes. Considering that I was 100% paralyzed on April 2nd, that's great progress...yet, depressing as hell.

IF I could afford only one "do everything" rifle & caliber? Bolt action, good variable power scope, and 7mm Remington Magnum caliber....capable of taking anything on the North American Continent.

Holy smokes! Yes, overkill is an understatement. An absolutely outstanding long range match cartridge, and formerly put to great use by the U.S. military's snipers, but I believe since replaced by the .300 Winchester Magnum with some new whiz-bang ultra-high ballistic coefficient bullet. Tremendous muzzle blast and recoil. Really heavy rifles. Not very practical as a hunting rifle to walk around with. And, well, unless he handloads, big $$$ every time he pulls the trigger. Very cool stuff, but pretty much out of its element slogging through those afore mentioned river bottom alder thickets.

Like this?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1764207002.jpg

Pretty much one of the all-time classic "western" hunting rifle combinations, an early 1970's Remington Model 700 BDL in 7mm Remington Magnum, fitted with a 3X9 power Leupold scope. One of the most accurate rifles I have ever owned, it will launch 160 grain Sierra boat tails into 1/2 MOA groups at will. I think it may be a bit light for the big bears (but many experienced hunters will disagree with me on that), but there is nothing better for western mule deer, elk, antelope, sheep, and stuff like that.

My scope is the same, my rifle is a Ruger M-77...I shot Norma ammo, 160 grain boat tail...scope had the duplex hairs. Worked well on Elk...never used on Bear. Funny aside...I had a Remington BDL...had it in a gun shop for some minor bluing touch up where it rubbed on the truck's rifle rack...got stolen. I had the tag, the hunt was coming up, and no shops near me had another BDL...thus, the Ruger. No complaints...it served me well for decades.

I'd want a 10 gauge shotgun with triple aught buckshot

:eek:

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Only the first couple boxes. Then it gets less expensive. But man is that rifle fun to shoot! We were plinking at 1/2 mile.

When you consider his longest shot was around 50 yards... yeah.. but that's my nephew!

He reloads so yeah the cost comes down a bit.

Yeah, it's a bit big. He stand hunts up in Canada. I think he had to get a different magazine for it though due to the limitation on rounds. I think his factory mag held 5 and Canada only allows 3 or something like that.

ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT BEARS NOW HAVE RIFLES?
I ain't going into the woods any longer without another person and a .22lr

(sorry, couldn't resist - carry on)

I used to hike a lot in the San Juans and sometimes pretty far in. Never carried a weapon and stupidly never even crossed my mind. During Covid, my wife and I spent two months in Telluride and hiked all over the place. Some of those hikes were pretty far in and we would not see another soul. Again, no carry and actually started thinking about it on occasion since we became acutely aware that we are in [I]their[I] territory. The following year we did the same thing except now experienced a couple of unnerving events with a herd of elk and a mountain lion. Two large herds of elk, both being led by large bulls, came down the opposite side of the open valley we were in and crossed the stream and worked their way up towards us with no cover. Absolutely stunning and terrifying at the same time given we did not have a weapon. This was on a trail way out in the open climbing Ajax up towards Black Bear Pass above Telluride. The second thing was seeing a mountain lion cross our trail from woods to woods.

I immediately visited the sheriff's office to inquire about open carry on public land. Yes you can, but CO is not reciprocal with IL for concealed carry. I put it on my to do list to get a 10mm handgun, but never did. We just stopped visiting and hiking the area since that town and CO in general has "changed" a lot in the 40+ years we have been going there. Question, what are your thoughts on a 10mm bear defense handgun?

Have a high powered rifle is great but that is a lot of steel to come to bear on a bear as seen on the Revenant movie as for me I would take a pair of those BFR pistols with the cylinder bored in 45-70 and having full bore hunting loads in the cylinder. I have shot a couple with both black powder loads and the heavy duty smokeless hunting rounds. The BP load was an easy two handed shooter BUT the smokeless load nearly sat me on my ass!!

I watched my late mentor Doug Knoell bore the cylinder in the one I shot as a test for him as his cancer had him pretty crippled up so no more range time for him. After 5 shots I could barely feel my fingers!
John Rogers the oldracer

I’m never going to shoot a bear but I have an absolute man-crush on those 375 ruger guide guns in laminate. They come LH and I keep trying to find a reason to get one.

https://www.ruger.com/products/guideGun/models.html

BTW does anyone know what type and caliber & rifle is used in the scene? I'm guessing something rather large.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1764295066.jpg

Putting aside the animal, I would be comfortable taking prey up to 350-400lbs with a .30-06. Beyond that more kinetic woof is required.

You might be surprised at just how inadequate their rifles were. They were all round ball shooters, usually somewhere between .45 and .54 caliber. A. 45 round ball weighs about 147 grains, . 50 about 180 grains, and .54 about 230. Round ball rifles generally start their projectiles at about 1,800 -2,000 fps at best. A round ball has the worst ballistic coefficient of any projectile imaginable. At 100 yards they will have already dropped below 900 fps. So, essentially, even at the larger end of the scale, about the same energy at 100 yards as the.45 ACP at the muzzle. Hardly adequate "bear medicine" in anyone's book.

I feel like buckshot is not ideal against a BIG bear ready for winter hibernation, but maybe taking 9 "small" shot at a time would be a deterent for a bear.

Don't they make short barrel O/U with a shot gun and center fire?
They would break down for an easier carry too?

Caveat: Personally not a bear hunter and I am sure Jeff forgot more about bear guns than I will ever know.

That said, a rifle is a tool and the best tool is one that is well-suited for the job at hand. For a bear gun, range, penetration, stopping power, and consistent shot placement all matter. For hunting black bear at 200+ yards I would think a 30-06 or 300 Win mag with the right loads would be effective.

At 100 yards in the brush the 45-70 is a proven choice for both black and brown bear and one of the most-chosen guide guns for defense in bear country. You still need good shot placement but these deliver a stout projectile with high stopping power.

At 30 yards or less I would favor a 12GA for defense. Either a slug or a double aught delivering 8 x 9mm projectiles into a fist-sized pattern with one trigger pull. This represents a whole lotta "stop that" to an aggressive bear. We live in Idaho and the northern half where we often get out in the woods is griz country. I hope I never find myself in a situation where this is needed.

I have tried to come up with excuses to by .45-70, but I don't really have a need. And I doubt it would be a gun I would like to spend a lot time on the range with. My father decided to give up hunting about 3 years ago, and I hung it up as well. I have been tempted, but I don't enjoy hunting as much without my Dad. Don't really enjoy hunting in Ohio, I like northern Michigan. If I ever do go back out in rifle country, my .30-06 has served me well. I have a Harrington and Richardson single shot 12 gauge slug gun for Ohio.

I have no personal experience here. From what I gather from those who do, however, buckshot - 00 or 000 buckshot - is the way to go. Many experienced guides, and some I hunted with, carried their shotguns with a slug up first, followed up by buckshot. The idea was the slug would be the first thing they would hit with at the extremes of "defensive" range, then buckshot as the range closed.

No one on Earth would ever consider any size birdshot for this duty. It simply would not make it through their skulls, fur, hides, layers of fat, and muscle. It's not even recommended for home defense by those in the know.

The old H&R "Handi Rifle". It's been produced by a number of manufacturers under different names. Unfortunately, it's usually a .223, .22 Hornet, or .30-30 barrel over a twelve gauge. Wouldn't be my first choice. I think they were marketed as more of a "survival" gun.

Absolutely. Lots of hunters just bring a .30-'06. With today's premium bullets, it's a better choice than ever. And, remember, one will always have a guide, by law, in Alaska or Canada, unless one is a resident.

Shot placement trumps everything. Granted, the bullet must be capable of adequate penetration, but put it in the wrong place, and all bets are off. Much like real estate - "location, location, location".

That seems to be the popular choice these days. Pretty hard to go wrong with one.

Most folks not actively hunting carry something along the lines of a 12 gauge pump or autoloader with the afore mentioned slug then buckshot loading.

You're overthinking this. There is a very blurry line between "need" and "want"... ;)

Several years ago a couple fellows came out to our South Bay Rod & Gun Club with brand new 1853 Sharps chambered in 45-70 from the good folks up in Big Timber Montana and they had waited for over 3 years for their guns. Both had 6 boxes of full bore heavy duty hunting loads at $50 a box for 10 rounds. Their intent was to get deer and or elk up in the Northern CA mountains.

Soooo after 3 shots each BOTH could barely move their right arm at the shoulder and I went over to see if I could help. I was shooting my Sharps and a Rolling Block and had several target loads with 540 grain pure lead bullets, 68 grains of Goex FFG so I offered some for them to try and they both loved the black powder idea. One fellow got on the phone right then and ordered half a dozen boxes of black powder loads for hunting. They gave me ALL the boxes of their smokeless loads and when I looked at the price I nearly fainted! If I remember they paid $50 a box......so I put them all on Gunbroker at a 20% discount and they were grabbed by a hunter in Colorado in less than 2 hours! Great deal for me and a couple of new black powder shooters that were happy!
John Rogers the oldracer

When I was a teenager dad was buying lots of guns, back in the 1970s. One of his favorites was a 444 Marlin. nice looking lever action, I only shot it once. although I'm sure it would stop a bear, it also mauled the shooter. :)

We don't have big game here ... a .30-30 Marlin was my first purchase at 18 ... I don't hunt ... I fish ;).

I can take deer with a baseball bat now :D

Black bears are now .... local... ain't 'spozed to be :(.

A Remington 18" 870 with Fiocchi 00 Defensive Load... Slug .... 3rd one won't matter ;).…

RIP Slugger...

Nope! I have a .357 Marlin too... everybody needs one tho' ;)!

What I would consider taking with me hunting bear produces a different subset of what I'd want with me for unexpected bear while doing things in bear areas.

For the latter, I find it interesting to note that there have been a few conversions of FN-FALs and builds of AR-10s in 358 Winchester....

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1764425761.jpg

The .338 Federal (center) between the .308 Winchester (left) and the .358 Winchester (right).

Whatever Higgin reloads in his .45s :)

I'd carry no less than my M29 .44 Mag ... and then do what wild bears do in the woods... as I ran ... :D

I'll just outrun him .... my slower buddy...

Good tactic to help mask your scent! Nobody, not even a bear wants to stumble into what made that smell!

No mention of things like 454 Casull or 50 cal desert eagles, LOL!

anyone here actually shoot a charging bear? just curious. shoot "at" a charging bear??

I'll be in bear territory this summer...I am buying two cans of bear spray. one to try and practice with. I figured reading the instructions as a bear is " bearing" down on me is the worst time to work out the spray logistics. :D. I know I am faster on my feet than half my travel group....

Nope, I have never had to stop a charging animal of any kind, in spite of hunting some that are notorious for this behavior. I've had the great good fortune of placing the first shot where it belongs on those occasions where I was after these kinds of critters.

So, yes, what I have on hand when just generally farting around in the woods in bear country, like back packing, day hiking, maybe grouse hunting with Ed, chopping firewood, whatever, is far different than when I'm out actively hunting. In these cases I'm carrying a small, short barreled, powerful revolver of some kind, stoked with some pretty heavy loads.

Here is a representative example of revolvers I carry. From top to bottom, an Interarms Virginian Dragoon and Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt, then another (Super) Blackhawk and a Smith and Wesson Model 29 in .44 magnum. My most carried by far has been the Blackhawk in .45 Colt, but I'm really warming up to the little Super Blackhawk because of its Bisley style grip. It really does a good job of handling heavy recoil. I don't carry the Model 29 much, nor the Dragoon, because I kinda like stainless steel in our rainy Pacific Northwest.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1764446201.jpg

My "bear loads" in both calibers utilize 300 grain bullets from LBT molds, cast from wheel weights. My .44 mag load will hit 1,200 fps, and the .45 Colt will just top 1,300 fps. I won't shoot that heavy load in the Model 29, though, it's just not as stout as the Rugers. In that I use the traditional old Keith bullet, cast in an RCBS mold, weighing 250 grains. My load for that does about 1,200 fps from the Model 29. Left to right, the .45 Colt, .44 mag, and .44 mag for the Model 29.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1764446201.jpg

So, yeah, hunting them and just being in their neighborhood are two different things. I'm realistic enough to know that even these revolvers offer scant protection when worse comes to worse, but they are better than nothing. That, and if targets of opportunity present themselves, I'll take a shot at 'em. I've lost track of how many coyotes I've dropped with revolvers when just out and about in the outdoors.