Residntial heating and cooling options

[Skip Newsom]

Looking for some input from the Pelican brain trust-

Our home is about a hour North of Seattle, very temperate weather wise, it can dip to the teens now and then and we get a few days in the 90s.

Current set up is forced air, 14 vents with 3 returns for 2300 sq ft, 2 stories with bedrooms all upstairs.

Furnace is 2008 natural gas powered York Affinity 80K BTU with variable flame and fan speed.
Summer months I lug the in-window 110V AC units to a downstairs mid house location and the other goes in the master bedroom.

Current spend is $1400 a year for gas, $1k for electricity, our water and stove are also natural gas, that cost drops to about $20 a month in summer.

I want whole house AC and better heating costs.
3 bids so far-

First company is pretty small and local, they suggest an AC unit outside on a pad vented into existing ducting, replace the furnace with a 60K BTU unit, $15.5 to $16.5K

Second bid is from a large regional out fit, they suggest installing a Heat pump on a pad outdoors, replacing the furnace- $26K

Third is a small local company, lots of experience and the only one that not only wanted house size, vent and return count but also said to turn up the furnace to 85, let get to full rip then go to each vent and see how to flows are. They were very different, which I was aware of since we have been here 35 years and bought it new.

His suggestion is to add mini splits one on the wall head unit for the main downstairs living area with the condenser mounted to the wall outside and lines run up into the attic to feed ceiling mounted cassettes in our bedroom and the room my wife uses as a gym,
all of which have their own thermostats and remote.

He also suggested a complete rebuild and re location of the heating ducts starting with a 24" trunk that has 4 feeds off it then reduce it to 18" for 6 feeds, then 12" for the last batch to improve flows.
He also said keep the furnace, it will almost never run.
He comes in at $24K

Given these options what are your thoughts?

Would you suggest some other approach?

[red 928]

This is how I approach the issue:

1. Insulate.
2. Make the house air-tight
3. insulate some more.
4. Then address HVAC costs and efficiencies.

[masraum]

Subscribed!

I could see one of the really good heat pumps working for you, but it sounds like a big part of the issue is the ducting.

The guy that works on our HVAC when we have a problem is always pushing us to get minisplits. I guess we'd need to get him to come and and be very specific, because that sounds expensive and like it would require a crap ton of units (unit per room). We have a small house, but because it's old, it's a lot of rooms.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by red 928

This is how I approach the issue:

1. Insulate.
2. Make the house air-tight
3. insulate some more.
4. Then address HVAC costs and efficiencies.

If you make the house "Air Tight" you don't get new air. You have to add an air to air heat exchanger, which honestly, is a good idea

[rfuerst911sc]

Was there any mention of SEER ratings ? In my opinion get the highest SEER ratings you can afford . And are all three quotes using the same and most recent refrigerant ?

[red-beard]

I replaced both of my heat and AC units in my house in 2020. I was going to go heat-pump with Natural Gas backup. This makes sense if the air outside isn't too cold. But the cost ended up being too much (extra $5000, which I'd never save in energy cost).

I went with a 2-speed system and condensing natural gas heat. It has 2 speeds for the condenser and 5 air speeds. It runs mostly on the low-speed mode (more efficient) and then only kicks up for hot days. The low air speed is useful for dehumidifying in the summer. Less humidity and it feels cooler.

Heating with Natural gas is cheaper. With the price of gas here and the few days a year we need heating (running AC in February! It is 83F on Feb 6th), the cost of the heat pump for the few days it would save money, didn't make sense.

System is 17 SEER and a mid-tier company

[jyl]

Your climate is the same as mine (Portland). Actually might be more temperate.

Ask the third company about using minisplits (maybe more heads downstairs) and doing nothing to the existing central heat. Idea being the minisplits handle AC and almost all the heating, with the central furnace only kicking in on the very coldest nights. Also set your furnace up to be able to unplug from AC and into a little generator (it will only power the blower motor and ignitor) in case of power outage in winter.

Since that guy says your furnace will almost never run (with the minisplits) I don’t see the reason to rebuild the furnace ducts?

[Skip Newsom]

Seer 23 has been mentioned by the last guy, he's very thorough been over here asking questions and narrowing down the details.

The OEM ducting is in my way and just plain silly.
The furnace is in the garage, it punches through the wall and gets converted to a round duct that goes down 6', reduces into a couple trunk lines then spider webs the individual vent feeds up 8'. He wants to put it near the ceiling for much improved flow and it will get me some floor space.

[john70t]

Originally Posted by Skip Newsom

Second bid is from a large regional out fit, they suggest installing a Heat pump on a pad outdoors, replacing the furnace- $26K

Sounds pricey...but sizing, brand, and locale...makes a big difference.

For reference:
-I put in two small heat pumps for a ~1100sq office space above a garage.
(electric Heat Pumps don't do well in extreme temps. But they do both.)

-I kept the existing gas wall-heaters to boost the lower-end temp spectrum.
A backup means is never a bad thing. Thermostat set at minimums.

-Plus added a central A/C unit system for the main 2-stage 2500sq house furnace.

-Plus a brand new 75gal water heater.
The AO Smith dated 2007 was still running strong. Same installers.
City might be trying to banning large gas water heaters. IDK. FU.

-Plus fixing a furnace pipe damaged. Probably by tenants hanging gardening hoses or falling on it. Whatever. Godspeed.

=About $30k.

Actually they reduced it a few thou with prompt payment. I was a bit surprised at that.
Reputable company I've used for decades. No junk brands. Super clean installs. City inspector did a fast walk through because he knew it was right.

[rfuerst911sc]

Wow that Rube Goldberg ducting is borderline a joke . Fixing that spiderweb of ducting alone would be a huge improvement . A 23 SEER setup would be very efficient and miserly on the month to month budget .

[javadog]

Back in the good 'ol days, the HVAC guy would take a plan of the house, do some calcs and design a system to suit. The third guy sounds closest to that mentality but I'm not a huge fan of mini-splits.

I don't have enough information to make any useful conclusions but I'd be looking for guy with that mentality.

That duct work is a joke. Gotta be redone.

You can also measure how tight the house is and how well it's insulated, two things I'd do. If you plan to live there a long time, It's worth studying the whole problem.

Also, consider that some work may have to be done to be able to integrate new ducting paths in a sensible way, as opposed to "working around" limitations that come from "I don't want to make changes to walls, ceilings, etc."

[LWJ]

So I made a large bit of my career insuring HVAC companies in Portland. In the last 5 years, Private Equity has bought them up in droves. Which, made prices go up in a huge manner.

Which means pricing is not consistent or rational. Shop it hard. There will be large deviations.

As for technology, I am not a tech guy but minisplits are the future. 98% of modern Asia uses mini splits. I am about to add significant mini split capacity to my second home this year.

But my main residence has a whole house A/C downstairs and a traditional heat pump upstairs.

The house often drives the solutions. Also, the mini split register is ugly.

Good luck!

[Skip Newsom]

The last installer that I dealt with is a one man company, he started out in Cali installing AC systems 25 years ago. He was stunned at the ductwork, amazed at how awful the installation is.
I do like the ability to heat or cool only the areas we need. Part of the reason to leave the existing furnace and rebuild the ductwork is also just to run its fan to balance temperature in the entire house via the 3 returns and 14 vents. We also have a natural gas fireplace with a thermal controlled fan. The biggest return is in the same room and only about 10’ away. I do like having backup systems!

Our home is pretty well insulated, I made sure of that early on

[wdfifteen]

I've had natural gas heat for as long as I've owned a home. I've always been happy with it. But we just moved into an all-electric home this fall.

HVAC in it is 3 heat pump systems - sort of in between a central heat pump and mini-splits.

This heat pump system sucks. Absolutely sucks. And it's only 5 years old.

I had the company that has been maintaining it come out and give me a tutorial on using it. They call the air handler/heat exchanger the "furnace" and the outdoor units the "AC." One furnace is in the basement and the other two are in the attics.

The furnaces pump out huge volumes of lukewarm air. The moving air causes a wind chill factor, in addition to contributing to static electricity build-up, and being noisy. We were comfortable at 68 degrees in a gas heated house, but have to keep it at 72 here to stay comfortable because of the wind chill. Worst of all, one of the air handler/furnaces is directly above the master bedroom. When it comes on full tilt, it's like trying to sleep under a jet engine. It is so bad we turn that unit off at night and rely on air wafting in through the bedroom door to keep us from freezing.

Did I mention this system sucks? The last two electric bills were $685 and $895. The solar panels are finally on-line, so the bill for January should be lower.

We do have a fireplace insert and keep a fire in it, so there is at least one warm area in the house.

If I had a choice I would heat with natural gas unless I lived someplace where they don't use the heat much. Electric might work for the OP.

[Skip Newsom]

Thanks for the perspectives, I absolutely will keep the NG Furnace.

How long ago was your system put in WD?

[masraum]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

I've had natural gas heat for as long as I've owned a home. I've always been happy with it. But we just moved into an all-electric home this fall.

HVAC in it is 3 heat pump systems - sort of in between a central heat pump and mini-splits.

This heat pump system sucks. Absolutely sucks. And it's only 5 years old.

I had the company that has been maintaining it come out and give me a tutorial on using it. They call the air handler/heat exchanger the "furnace" and the outdoor units the "AC." One furnace is in the basement and the other two are in the attics.

The furnaces pump out huge volumes of lukewarm air. The moving air causes a wind chill factor, in addition to contributing to static electricity build-up, and being noisy. We were comfortable at 68 degrees in a gas heated house, but have to keep it at 72 here to stay comfortable because of the wind chill. Worst of all, one of the air handler/furnaces is directly above the master bedroom. When it comes on full tilt, it's like trying to sleep under a jet engine. It is so bad we turn that unit off at night and rely on air wafting in through the bedroom door to keep us from freezing.

Did I mention this system sucks? The last two electric bills were $685 and $895. The solar panels are finally on-line, so the bill for January should be lower.

We do have a fireplace insert and keep a fire in it, so there is at least one warm area in the house.

If I had a choice I would heat with natural gas unless I lived someplace where they don't use the heat much. Electric might work for the OP.

Wow, sounds like you have a horrible system. From what I understand there are heat pumps that are able to function in places that are very cold.

"Cold climate heat pump technology offers high efficiency and exceptional performance, even in extreme cold conditions. These systems are designed to efficiently heat homes in temperatures as low as -22° F, maintaining comfort without sacrificing energy savings. Cold climate heat pump technology allows for heat pump installation in all regions and provides warm, energy-efficient heating even when it’s below freezing outside with some Carrier models operating down to -22° F.
'Earlier heat pumps had a poor reputation for efficiency,' said Curtis Herchenbach, owner of Herchenbach Mechanical in Gurnee, IL. 'Today’s cold-climate models can deliver 100% heating capacity down to 0°F.'"

It makes me wonder if you don't have one of the modern super efficient models.

[pavulon]

Is geothermal an option? I've been on it for 25 years and now that my Waterfurnace is reliable, I'm on year 2 (maybe 3?) of being impressed despite spells of -30F nights. Summer AC seems to not burden the system much or at all.

[peppy]

Is the $1K for electricity per month?
If you can heat and cool for $2400/year, I need to make some changes.

[cabmandone]

First thing, that abomination of a duct system needs changed absolutely. The problem is, if the duct system is that bad, odds are the system isn't designed properly either. If you're replacing the ductwork, I'd go modulating furnace and variable speed heat pump with a zoning system to balance everything out. But that's gonna get stupid pricey. The modulating furnace and variable speed heat pump will accommodate the zoning system without the need for a barometric bypass damper. You could go easy button on the zoning and make the entire 2nd floor one zone and the entire first floor another. The zoning system will close of ducts in the zone that doesn't need the heating or cooling. So if the first floor warms or cools faster, those ducts will close to a minimum and push more air upstairs. But again, this system is expensive... EXTREMELY energy efficient... but expensive. I'd bet the only time your gas furnace would run would be when the heat pump went into defrost mode. My heat pump is running now with the outdoor temp at 10. I have it set to cut out at 5 degrees. The benefit of the system I'd describing is that you'll also get excellent dehumidification because the system will run at the absolute minimum output but it'll run almost all the time. Crazy comfortable.

Most of your airflow problem is that duct system and more specifically the main trunk and the lack of reducers.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by masraum

Wow, sounds like you have a horrible system.
'Earlier heat pumps had a poor reputation for efficiency,' said Curtis Herchenbach, owner of Herchenbach Mechanical in Gurnee, IL. 'Today’s cold-climate models can deliver 100% heating capacity down to 0°F.'"

It makes me wonder if you don't have one of the modern super efficient models.

It’s only 5 years old. The heat pump runs at temps down around 0 without the resistance heaters coming on. If the delta between the thermostat setting and the room temperature gets around 3 degrees the resistance coils kick in. It’s the only time the air coming out is really warm. I’m going to check to see if this can be adjusted. If we’re really uncomfortable I’ll set the t-stat to 78 for a few minutes to warm the room quickly, then turn it back.