Audiophiles/surround sound folks, advice needed

[adamred]

A few years ago my father gave me his Conrad Johnson pre-amp and Audire-Forte amp. I bought myself some nice PSB speakers around 3-4 feet tall, and had a decent CD player (but soon will need to be replaced) so I have a nice sounding music system.

Now the situation, we're moving to a new house ijn 2 weeks with this incredible family room addition, 30 feet long by 20 wide, big cathedral ceilings, just a great room. I'd like to consolodate my stereo equipment, TV (hopefully replacing with a Sony Wega 50" after we move) DVD player, surround sound amp (JVC, nothing special but it processes dolby and DTS and get's radio stations) and bookshelf speakers. Also I'd like to be able to patch in my IPOD as I've got around 2000 songs loaded and it is just so darn convenient.

I want good quality but I'm not a turntable, blanket the walls and turn off the lights type of audio guy. Can I somehow make use of all of this equipement? Can the Pre-Amp, amp and surround sound amp somehow be made to work together? I know this is a big question for a Porsche forum and perhaps someone could point the way to a more specific forum for this....

Thoughts? Thanks.
Adam

[kach22i]

I have to run to another meeting right now- gotta run, try this forum:

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/general/bbs.html

[Overpaid Slacker]

Adam, talk to 10 audiophiles and you'll get 11 opinions.

I'm not sure what you mean by consolidating your stereo equipment, but a few observations:

Quality DVD front-ends are reasonably cheap now (unless you want a crazy Faroudja or something... which it sounds like you don't). I'd recommend even a $300-$400 Sony, but I'll probably wind up with the Denon DVD5900. That's just my total lack of impulse control, though.

Anyhoo, while no reasonably priced front-end does it "all" perfectly, a good DVD player can double as your CD front-end as well, so you "save" some $ there.

Make sure your pre-amp/processor takes all kinds of inputs, so you can run the sound in digital format to it. You can also get a patch cable/cradle for your iPod for a few measly bucks as well.

As far as amps... if those you have still sound good to you, use them to run separate speakers (drive the side/rears w/ the JVC and the A-F to drive L/C/R, for example). Again, the purists will tell you that you'll get different tonal qualities from different amps, but (1) you're in a huge, cathedral-ceilinged room, so unless you treat the snot out of it, the sound is going to be different and (2) unless you run the same brand of speaker, on the same type of speaker wire, you'll get subtle tonal differences anyway.

Soundstaging for Armageddon is much different than soundstaging for Mozart, so if you prefer approaching perfection in the former rather than the latter, the tonal differences won't bother you much.

Whatever processor you get, make sure it's got the ability to time delay (or accelerate) each channel ... that way you can come closest to soundstaging perfection even if the speakers have to be in less-than-optimal acoustic position. I've run Lexicon processors for years and swear by them, but to each his own.

The real answer as to whether you can make certain components work together is "depends." If your processor has a built-in amp it is less likely to have pre-amp outs. If your pre-amp is strictly that (as opposed to an "integrated" amp) it's unlikely you'll have much use for it in this system, unless it has a tuner. Either way, you'll be buying some cables...

Lastly -- and this is my little stump speech to everybody interested in sound -- buy the best cables you can afford. You'll keep them forever (and gradually push them down in your system(s) as you get better cables). A cable is a filter, plain and simple. The better the cable, the more sound, and true sound, you'll realize from your equipment. A $10,000 front-end connected to a $25,000 amp connected to $30,000 speakers will sound awful if you use shoestring cables. A humble system can sound pretty damned good if you use good cables.

Yes, matching the "right" cable to a particular amp-speaker combination is a nightmare, and largely personal preference, but w/o going through the hassle of auditioning many different cables, just getting quality wire will pay dividends along a much longer diminishing marginal return curve than spending that extra margin on a "better" component.

I prefer Transparent Cables, but there are plenty of fine cables out there.

JP

[OffCamber00]

Hey Adam,

This is my favorite audio-related website:

www.audioasylum.com

You can certainly "use" all of your gear in your new space as separate systems, but I don't think you'll be able to use your separate amp and preamp together with your surround receiver. Without knowing more about your gear in terms of specific inputs and outputs, I can't determine whether or not you can piggy-back stuff together.

You should be albe to patch your iPOD into either your preamp or your receiver w/o any problem.

If you don't want two separate systems, you may be able to consolidate most of your gear. Assuming your JVC receiver has pre-amp outputs, you could connect your 2 channel amp to power your front L & R speakers and use your PSB's. Then you could use the built-in amp section of your receiver to power the rest of your surround bookshelf speakers.

Your 2 channel pre-amp would not be used in this setup, nor would your existing front HT bookshelf speakers. But everything else would be preserved.

PM me if you want to talk more.

~mat

[adamred]

Awesome, thanks JP.
A few questions, I'm not an expert so forgive me....

What do you mean by a DVD "front end"? Is this an integrated DVD/amp that I see around these days? Would it replace both my JVC and DVD player (a panasonic from maybe 2 years ago)?

The CJ preamp is totally old school, really high quality but literally my old man bought that thing in like 1980ish, so as cool as it is probably of little use for a home theater/music system with new millenium components right?

The A-F is also from the same vintage but again of unbelievable quality, I have to check the inputs, but perhaps it could power the speakers?

The current JVC has got every imaginable input including optical, digital coax, etc.... When I set up my small system for surround sound in the current house the JVC definitely allowed me to time the rears, fronts and center, so that should be good right? I'm sound staging for Star Wars and the Foo Fighters, not Mozart...

Good stump speech, my Dad's been saying it for years...high quality cables are on the list!

[adamred]

Thanks Mat, the picture is getting clearer, power the PSBs for front surround with the old A-F amp. Power the KLH center and some new rear surrounds with the JVC. With proper cabling (is that a word) I assume the JVC and A-F will "talk" to each other so that I can watch a movie with this system?

Perhaps store or gasp....ebay the CJ to raise some funds for the new TV....

[OffCamber00]

Yeah. Hopefully, your JVC has a pre-out section that you can connect your A-F amp too.

[ErVikingo]

I need some time to get back to you properly. Some notes,

Don't diss out the CJ because of its age. It is certainly much better than 60% of what you can get these days and it will cost you at least a grand to get something of comparable sound quality.

If you are into high end music experience, you should try to get voice matched front speakers, in essence right/left + center speakers designed to work together (similar frequency response, speed, neutrality and s/n rations). Sides or rears can be different since these are effect channels and will mostly reproduce "noises".

If you are not looking for the absolute ultimate in movie experience, get a package deal. They sound quite awesome and will not break the bank. Then keep the CJ + for 2 channel.

For 2 channel audio, its a different story... More to come

My media room:

[Overpaid Slacker]

Adam -
"front-end" is geek-speak for where the signal comes from. A tape deck is a "front end", as is a turntable, CD player or DVD player.

If the CJ is ONLY a pre-amp (meaning it "just" accepts inputs and switches which one goes "out" to an external amp) then it's unlikely you'll need it in this system. If it is an "integrated amp" meaning it does the "switching" between inputs AND has a built-in amp, then you can put it to use in your new system, but you'll really be using it just as an amp. Without getting into anything crazy, you'll probably just run your signal in to, say, the "CD" input and leave the switch on CD forever.

It sounds like the JVC will be handling the "pre-amp" functions -- ie selecting between which input will be "heard". So the JVC will select whether the iPod plugged into its back or the DVD/CD player plugged into its back will be played through the speakers.

How many channels is the A-F? How many channels will the JVC amplify?

How many (and which) channels does the JVC allow pre-amplified sound out of?

Scenario -- your DVD player will handle 7.1 sound (seven channels plus subwoofer) digitally, so one digital cable supplies all that sound to your JVC. The JVC itself can amplify 5 channels and provides pre-amp outs for the other two channels as well as the ".1" subwoofer. You'll probably use the JVC to amplify the Left Side, Left, Center, Right and Right Side speakers and run the two other channels (and subwoofer) to another amplifier (maybe the A-F) and use that amp to amplify the Left Rear, Right Rear and Subwoofer (assuming your subwoofer doesn't have a built-in amp, in which case you'd take the pre-amp, or line-level, subwoofer "out" from the JVC and run it directly to the subwoofer).

There are a lot of issues that can complicate the foregoing (like if your subwoofer was supposed to act as your low pass filter for your speakers, but your JVC will probably do that).

The timing feature is key, so you should be OK. Another gadget to buy is a decibel meter or sound pressure level meter. That way, you can calibrate the volume from each speaker at your listening position. Radio Shack's got 'em for pretty cheap (~$50?).

JP

[adamred]

Wow- awesome room...that is of course the dream but I'm going to have to come up a bit short of that right now....

The CJ is really awesome and my Dad used to have it hooked up to a pair of Accostat (spelling) 5 foot high electro mag panel speakers that literally shook the house....we used to laugh that we could hear audience members sneeze on some of his "classical" music records....

[adamred]

OK, gotta start packing it up soon anyway so going to pull the instruction books, etc and look at the back panels of these components and report back in the next couple of days, then hopefully I can get to a final scenario.

JP one last question, is the 7 channel surround new? When I bought my DVD and JVC amp it seemed that 5.1 was the max, I assume that 7 makes for an even more full experience?

[Overpaid Slacker]

Typically 7.1 is synthesized by the front-end or (more usually) the processor. Lexicons excel at this -- they take the 5.1 signal and "create" stereo rear left and right sound so, they add 2 to 5.1, which equals 7.1.

JP

[david914]

Juan,

NICE looking room! Are those Aerial Model 8's? I worked at an Aerial dealer in Melbourne, FL back in the late '90s. Awesome speakers. Michael Kelly is a genius, as well as a super nice guy. Amongst other things, he designed the 320i's when he was with a/d/s/ back in the 80's. I've got a pair in my Carrera that I wouldn't part with for anything. Anyway, didn't mean to hijack the thread.

Adam,

If it was me, I'd consider keeping the stuff you have and using it in a den or office where you can enjoy just music. Even if you utilized a nice pair of bookshelf speakers with the current preamp and amp you have. You might be better off starting from scratch for your media system as integrating what you have will make things more complicated than they need to be for home theater. You can get really decent sounding A/V receivers these days. I just bought a Denon 3805 and it sounds fantastic. Not to the level of detail that a high-end 2 channel setup can provide, but for home theater its perfect. Just food for thought...

[89911]

I'll speak generally. An open ceiling, cathedral type room is never going to give you the sound that a lower ceiling, closed in "media" type room offers. I've got two home theaters in my house. One is my main familiy room that is 20x18 with 18' ceiling and large openings going into a kitchen and hallway. I used Definitive Technology powered front towers and center channel and in wall rear surrounds. It does sound great but the intensity is just not there. In my kids downstairs room, I used relatively cheap Polk Surrounds and a Panasonic Digital receiver. The room is maybe 18'x12' with low 7'ceilings and only one opening into the room. The imaging in this room is fantastic, especially the rear surrounds. Everything just seems focused on the listener while upstairs, the sound seems to dissapear unless played at very high levels.

This is why others, like the nice room shown above, dedicate a room just for this reason. If you still want to do the large room anyway, I wouldn't go too high end. Unless you want everyone in the house involved with the show.

[ErVikingo]

Yep, I got Aerial 8 rev. b with the Aerial Center Channel. I got Snells on the sides and rear plus a Snell center channel on the rear (yep, 8.1 layout). My sub is Sunfire Signature.

I currently use a Lexicon MC-1 updated with all possible modes which replaced a Theta Casablanca. The trade off on 2 channel sound was more than made up in multichannel quality (IMHO).

My front end is a tweaked Sony 9000ES DVD/SACD, Theta Data + Upgraded Gen V DAC, Sony XA 20 ES single CD, DirecTiVo with multituner, Pioneer Laserdisc, JVC SVHS, Sony VHS, Playstation 2, ....

The room is tamed with ASC Tube Traps and in-wall treatments covered in Guilford fabric. The chairs are my custom design. Control duties are by a Marantz/Phillips Pronto.

I have a dedicated power line to the room with its own breaker box. Power to the digital units is separate than the analog and power amps. I use a PS Power Plant on the Preamp.

I have a Sony projector and a Vutec 120" screen. Sound is awesome and video (well is too!).

Oh, I also have the ADS on my SC

[ErVikingo]

One thing you should carefully consider is the placement of the speakers.

If you drop me a line with dimensions, seating positions (and approximate ear level), speaker driver height and spatial limitations (ie, how far in can the speakers go) I can run a modal simulation of your room and give you some options for placing the speakers and your chair/sofa.

[kach22i]

Some of you guys (ErVikingo) have very nice systems, it's good to see audio alive and well.

I think there has been good advice given, keeping the Conrad Johnson for the den is a great idea...................then again posting it on Audiogon.com will surely give it a new home and loving owner.

For my own system, I seperated the two channel tube stuff from the solid state H.T. (home theater) stuff. That's the way to do it.

I wanted a Lexicon but in my price range that would be an old/used prologic. So I purchased a seperate Rotel processor instead. It's been a good unit, but I hate the complexity of it (H.T. in general, Rotel is more user friendly than most) and all the remotes too.

One day we may have a quality H.T. all in one box that is smart and voice activated..........................that will be the day.

[}{arlequin]

don't mean to hijack, but....

I've been playing around w/ some connections and noticed that my TV has an "audio out" set of inputs (outputs?)

does that mean that no matter what sound I have coming out of the TV, whether it's from regular broadcast, video game, or DVD, then that sound will be piped through whatever system I connect the "audio out" jacks?

That's my reasoning, but when I connected that to my tube amp, nothing happened. No sound out of the amp/speakers. Could the amp be the problem? Is the "audio out" piping out some digital signal that a tube amp can't "read"? Isn't an audio CD a digital signal too? When I connect a video game or DVD player directly to the amp, then it works, but when I try to have it run from "audio out" on the TV, then it doesn't...

any ideas?

thanks.

[Overpaid Slacker]

dave -

if audio is being supplied to the TV, and the TV has audio "outs" (make sure they're outs, as all RCA jacks look alike), they ought to be able to provide signal.

Two things -- check your TV's menus -- there may be an option in the menus to turn the audio outs (if that's what they are) on and off. Otherwise, if you want audio to go to the TV and to an outside source, you can (1) get splitters, but get good ones or (2) run the sound signal through the amp (or whatever) "upstream" of the TV and use the audio outs (sometimes called "monitor") on the amp to then run the signal to the TV.

JP

[ErVikingo]

I agree with David and Kach,

I would maintain the 2 channel separate from the video/multimedia setup. Remember, you can have an awesome sounding system without breaking the bank.

The highest bang for the buck you can get is from proper placement. The biggest component of your system is the listening environment, work with that first.