What if the South had won the Civil War?

[Steve Carlton]

Interesting mock documentary called CSA: The Confederate States of America. Looks good, and sure to piss some people off...

[pwd72s]

And if Germany and Japan had won WWII? Even more speculative...what if Seattle had won the Superbowl????

[legion]

Originally posted by pwd72s
And if Germany and Japan had won WWII?

'The Fatherland'

[Steve Carlton]

Harlan Ellison did a nice job with "The City on the Edge of Forever."

[Joeaksa]

We know that Pat would be in heaven had that happened. And the black slaves might still be picking cotton in the South...

[juanbenae]

dubya would be king!

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Steve Carlton
Interesting mock documentary called CSA: The Confederate States of America. Looks good, and sure to piss some people off...

While interesting, those flags are incorrect. The Cross of Saint Andrew based Confederate battle flag never flew over the Confederate capital because it's not the Confederate national flag.

That flag changed over the course of the war, but the last one was this:


Further, since the Confederacy would likely have not had world conquest aqspirations, those sprang from the New England Puritan culture, the same one that brought slavery to North America in the first place, it's unlikely that the Confederate States would have condoned a war with Spain, against Germany, or other subsequent foreign meddling. Without substantial US participation in World War One, Hitler would have been just another street bum in Vienna or Nuremberg. The space program photo is a non sequitur.

EDIT: If you want an entertaining alternative history novel, Guns of the South by Harry Turtledove is a pretty good one, far fetched, but interesting. The same author wrote How Few Remain a second alternative history about a second War Between the States.

[Joeaksa]

Anyone get the feeling that someone on this thread, possibly the person who started, relives this over and over?

[dd74]

Originally posted by pwd72s
And if Germany and Japan had won WWII?

Done...


http://www.philipkdick.com/works_novels_mancastle.html

[alf]

What if the South had won the Civil War?

The South lost, get over it and move on.

[scottmandue]

Originally posted by legion
'The Fatherland'

Got it right here...

[Moses]

Honestly? They would likely have evolved into close partners and allies or even re-joined the union after slavery ran it's eventual and unavoidable course in the south.

[Hugh R]

Joe

In all fairness to Fastpat, I think one of his points is very valid, which is that the victors write the history books. I've read some of Jefferson Davis' book "The Rise and Fall of the Confederacy" I inherited a 1st edition, and he makes interesting points about slavery being protected by the constitution, it was, and it was a states rights issue at the time. Also, if the Emancipation Proclamation "freed the slaves" then what was the need for the 13th amendment? Of course slavery was wrong, looking back today, but that doesn't necessarily mean the history books paint a true and accurate story of the what existed at that time. Davis cites numerous cases in his autobiography about the North (Federal Gov't) going to the Supreme court to overturn slavery and the courts repeatedly refusing to hear the cases because they had no standing, and directing the congress to amend the constitution, for which they couldn't get a 2/3 majority. The North repeatedly blockaded the southern ports trying to economically compel the southern states to ban slavery, because they couldn't legislatively ban slavery. You don't read that in text books in high school.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Moses
Honestly? They would likely have evolved into close partners and allies or even re-joined the union after slavery ran it's eventual and unavoidable course in the south.

Many people forget that only four states seceded initially. If Lincoln had done nothing, the other states such as Virginia, North Carolina, and Texas would not have seceded, indeed several of them had already voted to stay in the union; those four states could not have successfully formed a contiguous country. Lincoln's actions in initiating the war changed the opinions of voters in those states and the others joined South Carolina in leaving the Union.

[scottmandue]

Okay you history buffs help me out here.
This may be totally bogus but...
Someone told me that the civil war was not fought over slavery.


Anyone care to field that one?

[fastpat]

Originally posted by scottmandue
Okay you history buffs help me out here.
This may be totally bogus but...
Someone told me that the civil war was not fought over slavery.


Anyone care to field that one?

That's correct. When the four man presidential race was won by a man funded by and representing the Northern corporate and merchantilist interests; the southern states who had been carrying a hugely disproportionate share of the taxes that supported the federal government at the time only to see the money flowing northward year after year to build infrastructure in those states; some of the states had had enough and voted to secede fairly quickly.

The war was initiated by Lincoln and waged to determine who would control the country, and to stop the wealthy southern states from taking their wealth and abundant natural resources with them and forming a competing free trade, almost libertarian nation right next to one that favored corporate welfare, merchantilism, and protective tariffs.

[bigchillcar]

the Confederacy would likely have not had world conquest aqspirations

pat..that's arguably highly speculative..possessing insight as to the motives of not only the acting administration of confederate states in those day, but in those who might have succeded them over the decades. it is also widely speculative as to whether or not the seceded states would or would not have re-joined with the union, over the passing of time, after the cesation of hostilities. although there are still zealot 'holdouts' who still harbor hatred towards 'damn yankees', 150 years later..i think greater than 99% of us agree that it's all 'academic' now. we're one country, by overwhelming majority. but we could belabor arguments and desire to levy damands for 'reparations' ad nauseam back through history. we can either continue to 'grind axes' or we can 'mend fences' with our brother. my humble opinion..
ryan

[Mulhollanddose]

Originally posted by scottmandue
Okay you history buffs help me out here.
This may be totally bogus but...
Someone told me that the civil war was not fought over slavery.


Anyone care to field that one?

It certainly was. In fact the Republican party started as the 'abolition party', Lincoln was their first candidate. A large majority of the Christian folk who fought and died in the Civil War thought, rightly or wrongly, that they were freeing the slaves--the Abolition Party. The 'Emancipation Proclamation' and the fact that the single greatest product of the Civil War was an end to slavery only bolsters that conclusion...Surely there were other motivations but they were not the motivations that encouraged the common folk to fight and die...If it wasn't about slavery, why didn't the Republicans call themselves something besides the 'Abolition Party'?

[Rick V]

I think it is funny when people think the phrase of "damn yankee" still refers to a differing opinion of politics. This Phrase, while still refering mostly to people of the northern states, is used more to the fact that they still want to change our way of life. Yes we still talk slow down here but we like it that way. We like taking time to smell the roses or watch an interesting cloud formation. We don't have to run everywhere at mach 5.
I think a bumper sticker I saw explains it well " I don't care how you did it up north" I also find it interesting that more people are moving south than the other way around. There must be a reason for that.
We say please and thankyou, we hold the door for a lady and we don't wear hats to the table or indoors for that matter. Before I get drug accross the coals for my opinions I must tell Ya'll that I was born in Philla.Pa. and I moved to Va. 25years ago and I didn't leave anything in Pa. Yes some folks here are still fighting the civil war but for diff. reasons and unless you have been here for a while you just can't understand why.JMHO

[Mulhollanddose]

Interesting Rick. I get mistaken for a southerner quite a bit. Don't know why, born and raised Angelino. I say "yes maam" even if the woman doesn't like it, I say "yes sir" and often greet people with a "howdy."...I not only open doors for ladies but also men (sometimes they are one in the same here in the land of fruits and nuts)..I have actually startled quite a number of people with my manners and interchanges, seems chivalry is near extinction in a lot of America, especially the Peoples Republic of California.