What IS the answer?
 

Tabs thread "America is going to fall" gave me pause and started me thinking.

Yes, there is division in the citizenry of our great nation, as evidenced by the microcosm of PPOT postings.

However, the argument about the proper action to be taken in the current middle east situation seems to present a quandry: One extreme says "Stay the course", without really defining the course. The other extreme says "Cut and run", without fully defining what the results of this alternative would be. BOth alternatives are simply jargon; meaningless and created only to provide an emotional rallying point.

The answer to this conundrum is relatively simple. Both ends of the spectrum ask the other to come up with a plan. Truth is, that neither extreme will work and therefore neither side can present a workable long range plan, and each side knows it. So, we have the status quo of attack/counterattack in which each side understands but will not publicly acknowledge there is no way that either simplistic approach is viable.

So, the answer is simple, neither side has a clue how to handle the situation. The problem, separate from the question therefore, is to develop some kind of workable alternative that probably hasn't even been thought of because the pundits on both sides are too damn busy taking potshots at each other. The problem is very complex and will not be resolved by slogans or wishful thinking. But, causing rancor, marginalizing the other side is easier than actually figuring out what to do, much like the problem of the borders.

If anyone here can conclusively state that the situation is resolvable, and can supply cogent, rational arguments to support their claim, I think they should share it with us, and perhaps also with their elected congresspeople. I have contacted my Senators and Representatives and given them the address to this site and suggested they read some of the comments if they REALLY want to see how people think.

Like the past, the USA will wait until the situation is far more dire than it currently is before a unity approach can be taken. It is time for one extreme to stop the sabre rattling and the other to stop hoisting the white flag. Will that happen? Time will tell.

Every great civilization throughout history has fallen. Will the USA be any different? And if it does, what will replace it?

42

Your question goes much deeper than just the USA...



KT

trekkor..

You betcha.........

Yes, all people crave good government. Only problem is, it's NEVER been seen.

KT

The answer is somewhere in the middle. You see some of the wackos in here, and it gets you thinking the end is near. Or you see a Volve wagon going down the freeway with 9 unrestrained kids bouncing around in it with a Kerry-Edwards sticker on it and you KNOW the end is near.

Same thing at the Doctors' office / pharmacy / bank / post office / passport office / any cross country flight after 10pm. Visitors to this country that do not speak the official language who are breeding their way into majority voting blocks irreguardless of citizenship.

The end IS near. Glad I won't be around to reap that harvest.

One of the last things man has yet to try, is to actually eliminate the religions of the world as an attempt to obtain "peace and security".

The UN will try this. Then what?


KT

OK, here is a naive suggestion: What would happen if everyone just minded their own business ?

Nobody would post here, for starters:D


KT

What? The UN!?!? Oh...never mind.

If you're trying to make the point that eliminating religions would eliminate a lot of killing and suffering that is currently going on in the world, I think you're on to something. Great idea. You have my support.

Mike

Mankind's failed efforts
 

For centuries, men and nations have spoken about peace, have debated peace, have signed hundreds of peace treaties. What has been the result?

In the last 80 years, there has virtually *never* been a moment when some nation or group has not been at war. Clearly, peace has eluded mankind.

So the question is, Why have all man’s efforts to establish international peace failed, and why is man incapable of bringing about true peace that will endure?


KT

I say use the military to protect the public service installations, power,water,hospitals. When those facilities are up and running the Iraqis become responsible for their security.

Then we go home.

Trekkor wrote:
For centuries, men and nations have spoken about peace, have debated peace, have signed hundreds of peace treaties. What has been the result?


Having fought the restrictive, imprisoning shackles of religion for centuries, enough painfully fought progress has been made in the sciences to create the wonderful world of today. Technology has enabled us to live better and better lives. It also has given us the tolerance to allow thousands of religious fanatics to travel the world spreading their nonsense, without being killed outright. Well, I guess we got to take that as the down to the up of real enlightenment that science brings the world.

If they do, maybe I'll actually become a UN supporter. . .

One can only hope. . .

It's all God's fault for sure....:rolleyes:

After 911 it became apparent that the old policy of not really engaging in the Middle East was not operative. Even Oil never got the USA off the dime in trying to resolve ME problems. It took a direct attack on US soil that threatened the Global economy by creating a crisis of Liquidity that caused the US and world to sit up and take notice.

It seems that Nobody with the exception of Sadam and various Palesteinians were dancing around with glee at the fall of the WTC. Everybody recognized the dire implications to the Status Quo in the world. Even Kadafi and Arafat didn't like what they saw. That a real bunch of crazy religious fanatics were on a Jihad to topple not only America but as a result the Global economy and that menat them as well.

The Afgan operation was handled with a deft hand, a few Special Ops Troops and Intel Operatives were able to trounce the Taliban in quick order. Of Supream importance was the Alliance that the US made with Pakistan...it was a case of using a carot instead of a stick. Musaref has virtually put not only his regime but his life on the line in supporting the USA, for the Taliban was a creature of his own intel service.

Sadam was a trickier proposition, which we handled in a throughly Bureaucratic fashion, with a heavy hand and like the scarcrow in the Wizard of OZ without a brain. Sadam was laughing at our sanctions, becuase he had bought the UN and French off. Perhaps a limited invasion of appropraiting his oil fields in the South would have served the US better, under the humanitarian guise of protecting the *****es and setting up a *****e government in the South. We were doing virtually the same thing with the Kurds in the North, giving them airprotection to stop Sadam from conducting mikitary ops against them. Thus deprived of Oil revenue and territory in the South and North it would be only a matter of time for Sadam to be ousted. and if not a little help could have been applied. That is a plan that would have served the US well in Iraq.
t T

The Dems claim of losing the focus on Al Qadea and Osma is spurious since virtually every intel service is cooperating in hunting for these fanatics. The Syrians and Kadafi have provided info on them. The real war against Al Qadea is a quiet one, where the battles rarily make the paper. Perhaps becaue our resources are heavily invested in Iraq we are giving shorter shift to Afgan and that is a tragedy. Yet ever trying to unify as independent a people as the Afgans is a daunting proposition.

The real threat is a resurgent Iran yearning for regional superpower status and to gain that a bomb is the real coming of age status symbol. The real thing that one has to take away from this is that the Arabs or Sunis don't like the idea of a hegemonic Iranian (*****e) theocracy as their neighbors. perhaps the Israelie restraint in dealing with Hezabolla was that their Arab neighbors in Jordan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia told them to lay low and they would side with Israel if push come t shove with Iran. Yet their regimes have to play to their street.

Iraq poses a special problem, we broke it and we now own it at least until we glue the place back together. We in most likely hood will have to be the glue for decades, to provide a wet blanket as it were to keep a smoldering fire from beocming a blaze that could engulf the whole region in war. Which would sound the death knell for the Global economy in that the price of oil would undoubtably jump well over $100 a barrel conservativily speaking. Not only that but the price would become highly voliatile on a daily if not houly basis according to the events of the day. Perhaps the most likely scenerio is that the next Presidentof the US will say to some Iraqie your running the place now, just keep a lid on it. The we can draw down our troop levels to around 40,000 or so.

I sometimes wonder if the conspiracy theories I read about the New-World order are not, after all, the truth of what is going on right now.
In a nutshell, the present middle-east conflict would have been created by those in control, the elites who want to create the problem and bring the solution. The goal would be to destroy the US empire, and enslave the entire planet in a 1984 like world, with a central world governement that guaranties the peace at the cost of individual freedom, with everyone chipped as in the mark of the beast. The real ennemy was never the muslims, but those who make us beleive that they are the ennemy. Is this where we are headed? Is my tin foil hat still in place?

Aurel

C'mon. Seems everybody always has THE answer to ALL the questions.

I'm disappointed. :p


KT

Plastics

The US Empire is the New World Order. It is called the Global Economy or Tom Friedman calls it the "Flat World" Hpwever U want ot describe it, the life blood of the New World Order or what makes it all possible is the concept of Liquidity and Cash Flow.

So who controls the global economy? Is it the US empire? I don`t think so. The whole idea is that the power is shifting from the US empire to global corporations that have no ties to a specific nation, who make profits from using cheap labor where it can be found. Hence the fall of the US empire, because the US standard of living is a draw to the global economy that cannot be sustained anymore. When union workers make $100k/year of money borrowed from the chinese, and borrow 80% of the paper value of their houses, while exporting nothing, things are not sustainable. The present cash flow has been: USA borrows and consumes, China lends and produces. How sustainable is that?


Aurel

To continue my train of thought, I have come to the conclusion that the only thing the USA can now export is military order. In other words, using its military to keep the world economy working. I would rather see GM build electric cars and Delphi make batteries for them, but when all you have left is weaponry, your self assigned responsibility is to be the cop of the world. And if you got no job, then create a war or two and you are in business...

Aurel

You want answers?

Issues that VOTERS can impact:

Term limits...good for the pres, good for all and the key to ALL relevant reform.
Cap on election spending (no PAC money) for candidates AND the political parties. The financial barriers to running a successful campaign are too high, event with term limits.
Federal Budget Reform:
- Line item veto
- Eliminate all riders on the fed budget.
- Federally fund only those activities specifically outlined
in the Constitution. I love the Arts, I just don't think
the Feds should be involved in the funding.
- Eliminate any specific budget language unless included by
5 or more representatives.
Stop illegal immigration, period.
Return those rights specifically granted in the Constitution to the states...get the Federal Circuit judges out of the picture.
Pass significant tort reform, to include penalties in frivolous lawsuits.
Meaningful, non-PC education reform, which must staff by eliminating the federal government and the NEA from the process.


Other:

Eliminate seperate branches of the armed forces...we could save billions in the elimination of the various staffs alone, to say nothing concerning the redundant DoD infrastructure across the various branches.
Failing that, reduce all DoD staffs in half. Reduce service specific HQ staffs by 75%.

Cultural:

Too much for this post:) .

Stalin, Joseph Vissarionovich
Mao Zedong

BTDT

To stop placing blame, to have an open mind, to accept that we are all different and deal with it ....


All wars are fought over land and money, period.

Not exactly...You are forgetting one war that has yet to be fought.


KT

KT

Simplify it. All wars are fought for power, whether that power be in the form of land, resources (including wealth) or men's souls(hearts and minds, as our Washingtonians keep reminding us).

I'm talking about Armageddon, of course.

Not about money or land at all.


KT

I kinda figured, and that is the "hearts and minds" aspect of war....Every war is Armageddon to those directly involved.

The ultimate power, persuant on an individual's point of view is "good" versus "evil".

Everything is coming together...


KT

The US Model of Capitalism is now the model for the Global Economy. American ideas and culture has been transposed unto the world as well as business methods...thus I have said we use Mickey MOuse, McDonalds, Coke Cola etc as our method of conquering the world instead of armies of occupation. We use military force to keep those who don't go along in line. So in a sense it is an American Empire....

I'm down with that!
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1156977166.gif

Trekkor... are you still trying to make this pig fly? Please list all the attributes that make this time the correct time, when all the other prophesies were just plain wrong.

I talk to a lot of people, I read a lot of news and opinions.
No *person* has any solution for lasting peace. Period. End of discussion.

Just because what I am saying is unpopular, doesn't mean it isn't true.


KT

+1 Seahawk.
But that last part is to prevent Caesar(sp) from marching the tropps back into Rome.
'Course with a stagnent economy, which won't support excess porkbarreling, that may become the default. By design. Chess strategy isn't reactionary.

Trekkor,
Just because what you are saying is unpopular (and unsupported), doesn't mean it is true.