Joe,

let's say I moved my company about a mile from your house. and then I made a "business decision" to fly a helicopter to and fro the airport, a path directly over your house. 3X a day and at 9 Pm when you were trying to relax.

Would you have a problem with that? Please answer the question.

As long as you don't make more than $28k per annum, I'm sure Joe would be ok with you doing that once in a while just to see how the other side rolls.

:D :D

Helicopter? Hell boy, you ought to live a few miles off the end of an Air Force base and have B-52's, A-10's and everything else shooting touch & go's all night long...That's the sound of freedom, and I LOVE IT! Build a bunker!;)

Off Ramp,

Thats the sound of freedom my friend. Someday you will get it but believe that it may take a long time.

BTW, I live right UNDER The approach path of an airport now. I hear airplanes and helo's ALL DAY AND NIGHT LONG!

I love the sound of planes, not just jets, but all of them. Fighter jets on afterburner are really music to my ears.

I just had an epiphany, on-ramp.

Tim is an exception. He like planes. I like planes too, and can understand his delight at aviation noises, almost any time and any place.

But the epiphany is this: There are some guys here who, no matter how obnoxious the behavior you describe, will just support the obnoxious behavior all the more. They've bought into the whole competition-by-dollar-score thing where the bullies not only have an opportunity to kick sand in the weaklings' faces, but they have a DUTY. The whole obnoxious show-off, conspicuous consumption, in-your-face wealth exhibition thing is part of what's supposed to motivate us. When we get sand kicked in our faces by someone because they're much welthier than we are......then that's supposed to spur us into fiercer economic competition.

Helicopters are good, and they're even better when they piss people off. The more you describe how the people in the upper class ride roughshod over those in the middle class........the more some of these guys are going to regard your story as a "good" story. It's important for wealthy people to show the rest of us who's boss. It's motivating. All part of the goodness of capitalism.

They like the idea of helicopters interfering with peoples' lifes. It's part of the "I'm better than you" attitude that makes this country so great.

"Roughshod over the middle class"

Please... please go to a Wal Mart, the mecca for the middle class and help out. Take one or two of the people there back with you, sure they would love to stay with you rather than where they are now.

I live about 5 miles from a Navy base, planes, Helios, props & jets fly not only over my home, but my private club on the water, where many retired officers are also members and right next to that base (and across the river) are two of the nicest wealthiest and most established addresses in N. FL. and one of the most prestigious Country Clubs on the east coast. Guess what, I feel the same way you do, off-ramp is just pissed that at who succeed in life & business. Down here if you live on or near the river, planes, big & small & Helicopters are going to fly over your home. I'm also on the air route for the hospital helicopter, so any time there is a bad accident, they fly over my house too.

Personally, we get a kick out of the helos that fly over. They are only overheadfor a few seconds. We hear jets as well as a train every 6 hours as well and it doesn't disrupt us. Maybe if you were busy praying or something then...



(Not a fan of the black ops that fly by with cannons and 50 cals on the sides but ones but ya gotta take the good with the bad.)

Come on Supe, you & I both know there are many Union leaders who use helicopters to travel too.

Superman, I'm not as eloquent with words as you are . I appreciate your post and thank you for making this argument a little better than I was able to.

Obviously the elitist punks on this board seem to feel it's ok to trample on other people's rights just because they are better off than 98% of the rest of the population

SmileWavy

Supe, in your messed up world, it is OK for a union guy to make twice what a non-union guy makes, but not OK for an executive to make more than the union guy. You are no better than the ones you would accuse of being robber barons.

Since we are trying to make up scenarios.....What if the helicopter was a life flight medical flight? I am guessing Off-ramp would be fine with it (as long as it only was transporting sick homeless people or ditch diggers ;) ).

As a union guy, Supe's disdain for corporate America is not suprising (even though I find it ridiculous). Maybe Off-ramp is a union guy also?

What "right" is being trampled on by a helicopter?

I think you might have your classes mixed up, Joe. Surprising, since class comparisons are so vital to your beloved economic system.

In the capstone MBE course at Gonzaga, they had us read a book called "Competitive Advantage" by Michael Porter. Interesting perspective, the one you get in these "policy" classes. A view from the balcony, so to speak. Anyway, it seems that while there can be many 'differentiated' competitors in an industry, there will be only one 'cost' winner. A clear example is fast food. Wendy's is differentiated. Pizza Hut is, too. Arby's. And the cost leader is.........yeah, you know who that is.

In department stores it's Wal-Mart. Middle class folks shop at Nordstroms and Macy's and perhaps Sears and Penneys. Some folks don't shop at department stores at all and wouldn't be caught dead in one. Wal-Mart is the new K-Mart.

I must be below middle class. I might be in Macy's or Nordstrom's once a year each. I hit Wal-Mart once or twice a month for ammo, oil and toiletries. Although K-Mart is looking better these days since they started selling Craftsman tools.

It is the executives' rights to fly in a helicopter that are being trampled....WTF! :mad:

Elitist punk??? :D :D :D
I probably make less than you do ;) :D SmileWavy

Nah. Don't most union guys make more than $28k a year?

Seriously, helos are not that big of a deal. Are the residents of Natick really that concerned or is it just a headlines grabbing attempt?

That area has enough to worry about with that tunnel they have and Logan airport as well as a very poor basketball team! Lets put things into persepective folks shall me?

Tim, I'm probably not as wacky as you appear to be thinking. I am in labor relations and I do like HR and OB issues and questions. Motivation is a fascinating thing, to me. So, I notice the things that motivate, and how those things are manipulated.

I also notice how wages are determined, and I hope your remark was in jest. Here in Seattle, union construction workers make wages typically in the range from $28 to $43 per hour plus another $8 to maybe $14 contributed to benefit administrators. Total package is mid-thirties to upper forties. Non-union folks make that or less. Usually less. Sometimes substantially less, but you're not going to get anybody useful on a construction site for less than mid-twenties, and that's determined by pure supply and demand. Absolute minimum value of a worker that knows how to avoid getting killed on a construction site is $25. Skilled folks are a bargain at $45. Union or non-union.

Here's the part that you're pretending to not know: There is a bit of difference between the highest paid union worker you or I have ever met or imagined.......and the guys who ride on-ramp's helicopters. Pay wise. Those construction workers, in a good year, if they're very skilled and hard working, and union, working overtime at every opportunity, working in the rain and snow and wind, whatever.......can approach $100K. The helicopter riders' wives have clothing budgets in excess of that figure.

And....I really like that whole supply-and-demand thing. I'm not anti-capitalist. And yeah, I've heard all the arguments about how certain CEO's are a bargain at $200M per year. One thing's for sure. The market for CEO's is a "seller's" market. The market for Carpenters is a "buyer's" market.

I know that distinction has the potential to make you think, but that it might not have that actual effect.

For $40 an hour I'll move my family out there and I'll wash your cars on the weekend for free. WTF

Supe, the fact that you think $28-$43 per hour is fair pay proves my point perfectly. Thanks for making it easy ;)

I was thinking along the same lines and hell with a college degree can we expect more? :D

is $40/hr more than 28K/year?

Off-ramp, if you don't know that without having to even think about it for a second, then you should be happy to make $28k a year.

My God this is funny!! These two are just digging their hole deeper and do not realize it!

With benefits and such these "low paid union workers" are close to $100k a year at the upper end!

I live within the pattern area of a (busy) small airport in the NE, have owned a home there for more than 30 years. They have no commercial flights but plenty of training flights, both helicopter and fixed wing. Some of my neighbors object to the traffic but mostly just afraid that a plane will hit their house. I have never objected to the noise, even when jet medivacs would come and go in the middle of the night. By the way, we have never had an accident that resulted in any personal property damage or injury.

My son has flown S-76's for the past 9 years and is currently flying a Falcon 900 for a large NE company. Had it not been for the airport, I'm not certain what he would be doing for a career. That is where he started his career and developed a love of aviation.

I fly for a hobby and love the freedom of flight as well as the sound of the aircraft. Many years ago while on active duty in the military I was fortunate to spend some time in UH-1's. I can't think of anything that can elicit more of an emotional response in my mind than the sound of an approaching Huey (a very unique sound). That was the sound of "help on the way" in SE Asia.

As a kid, my father was in the Air Force and we lived on SAC bases where it was a daily event for B-47's w/ Jato assist taking off. It was always an experience that would send shivers down my spine to see and hear those things. And yes, it was the sound of freedom.

While I'm not overly pleased with some of the executive compensation packages that we see today, I have been the benefactor of using corporate aircraft throughout my business career. They offer safety, security, efficiency and economy that the public will never fully comprehend.

Are there abuses, you bet, but in the big scheme of things corporate aviation plays a major role in business. It also does it's share of Angel flights and emergency transport of critically ill patients. I worked for 30 years for a Bil$ company and I can say that my company always put the health of it's communities, residents and employees ahead of business schedules. There were many flights during those 30 years that took folks from remote Canadian border locations to Boston or NY city for the best medical care available. Never a penny changed hands.

I hate to see people criticize something when they don't have all the facts.

As 'muricans with the right to have all kinds of guns, and shoot anybody who puts even so much as a little toe on your property........ can't you shoot down the Choppers for invading your airspace? :).

Tried that once. Got sued by the neighbors whose houses it crashed into.

Was so not worth it.

You should have done a deal with the pilot & sued the neighbors for having put their house there. On the grounds that the pilot could have landed safely in that space had the house not been there.

Nope, not if you only work 700 hours (17.5 weeks) a year. So yeah, I see how a union worker could make $40/hr and only gross 28k/year...

On the other hand, if it is a typical job, $40/hr = $83.2k/yr. Not what you could call poor.

I feel I can add to this discussion...

I live within one mile of one of the busiest private airports in the country. I also know many of the top execs at some of the top corps in the US. They happen to be local to this part of the state.


Observation #1: Many of these people do benefit from the time savings a jet or helicopter offers. That translates to profits for the company...both private and public. While some may abuse the "perk", most do not.

#2: If the noise from aircraft is bothersome then one will need to take it up with local officials as the flight patterns are governed by the FAA (As far as I know) and negotiated by local government. When purchasing a home you need to research all aspects of local living conditions.

I've given a good number of speeches, and I always hope for a heckler like you.

The construction season is about eight months long.

A construction CAREER is perhaps twenty. Sure, they are sometimes stretched longer, but all my fifty year-old Carpenter friends' bodies are BEAT UP. These are "industrial athletes" and it's not that much fun erecting steel a hundred feet in the air with sleet hitting the side of your face at 30 mph.

It's pretty easy to get killed on a construction site. VERY easy to get hurt.

Construction jobs are not unskilled jobs. It takes years to become a journeyman, and there is good reason for that.

Et cetera.

If these jobs were overpaid, we'd not be having this much trouble getting people into the trades. We have lots of trouble finding people to take these careers. If you're itching for one of these jobs get yourself a plane ticket. I'll get you on a job site.

I think the median home price here is $800,000. Try paying that mortgage by working eight months at $35 per hour.

And finally........I've got no problem with the idea that a guy who works hard and stays out of the hospital, who learns a craft and uses those skills to build our infrastructure.....Iv'e got no problem with the idea of him being able to afford a decent place to live, a family and perhaps even help a kid through college. Quite frankly, my job sites are littered with guys working substantially harder than the helicopter riders we're discussing. I've got respect for those construction workers, and I'm saddened by the notion that some folks don't.

Yes, I go to bat for those guys. I feel honored by the opportunity.

I have to disagree with the "productivity" argument. Odds are the CEO would be on the phone and/or at his computer. Both can be done from the back of a limo...and in fact are much easier to accomplish there than in the helo. I do agree that it will generally save time, and depending on scheduling, could be make or break.

This isn't 1980...but flying in a helo is cool and gets him bragging rights with the other CEOs.

For a job? Are you serious?

In Auburn?

My wife will tell you that life was simpler when I relied on physical labor for our income. I often come home much more worn out when I'm making important decisions all day. Decisions with real consequences for my family's future. It's not often I make big changes, but the times I do are by far the most stressful.

Ain't that the truth. I used to work on the floor 10 hours a day and would actually be dripping sweat we were pushing so hard... Eastest job I ever had.

I just did a cost of living calc from here to Tacoma Washington and it's 5% more expensive HERE. Homes are cheaper there as well. I'll try another city.

Correction, I had the wrong city in there. It's actually 8% more expensive there. Just being honest.

Sup, just a bump. Were you serious about the availabilty of $40 an hour construction jobs in Washington?