Best Group at 100 Yards
 

Whats your best group at 100 yards? I am still working on mine, I hope to half this one soon.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1191216032.jpg

The holes are from a 0.308 for referance

Nice group. What did it come out of?

I'd be quite happy with it. If those were handloads you have a good load combination.
Jim

My buddy has a group that looks about like that for an M-16 when he qualified for prisoner transfer at his job. A clip in 60 seconds, however many that is. Said it was a really easy gun to shoot accurately.

Nice group.

But ever attended a Precision Bench-rest shoot? At those events they have to have 'moving backers'...paper rotates/slides behind the target for each shot.
There may only be ONE, RAGGED HOLE. The backer confirms the number of rounds that passed through!:eek:

My Savage in 22mag can give me about 1" at 100... I don't have a good enough scope Or the skills in using one (though I've been thru olympic shooting camp training as an intro...) to do better myself.

Our local Kenmore gun club is a hotbed of competetive benchrest. While I don't compete, I have had the pleasure of shooting some buddies' rifles. On a calm day at 100 yards, ten shot groups from a .22 or 6mm PPC in one of their bench rifles will look like one bullet hole, maybe a .30 caliber hole. Almost any competent shooter can do it with one of their rigs. At actual matches, they have to use rotating target backers that clock 36 degrees between shots, so they can actually tell where each shot went. I guess nowadays they sometimes use the Ohler sonic target set-up that will precisely locate each shot.

The point is, this is more of a test of equipment than of shooter. I'm glad some one does it, as it holds no interest for me, but it does serve to improve the breed (again, rifles, not shooters). Far more telling is how a guy can do with a real rifle (one you can carry around with you) from field positions, at unknown ranges, on the first shot, when in a bit of a hurry. Guys that can hit consistantly under those conditions are riflemen. The other guys only think they are.

Pretty much completely agree with you. When I was shooting all the time, there were always older gentleman with Anschutz target rigs and other make target guns on the range, and everyone thought they were Carlos Hathcock or something. I was shooting my trusty Remington 597T and one of the guys started slak-jawin' and pointin' at me and my "cheap" gun. I offered to go a few rounds with him and he took me up on it. Shot an aspirin @100yds. and shut him up.

On the topic of true riflemen, I recall a story (a few) years ago in Guns and Ammo of hunting deer in Texas with gun smith David Miller. Miller, with one of his custom 7mm rigs setup with a bi-pod, in sitting position, shot a deer through the lungs at 550 yards. As the deer bolted, he cycled the bolt and put another through the lungs, again at 550 yards. This time moving.

Now *that* is impressive!

My old Remington model 722, .257 Roberts caliber, could compete with that...Only "trick" on the gun is glass bedding by a competent smith. I have it tuned to hit a bit high @100 yards...(edit) IMO, Jeff nailed it though. Tight groups from a bench are one thing...taking a deer or an elk in the field is another.

If I were looking for another field gun? Think I'd be eyeballing the Steyer Scout in .308. 2.5 power intermediate eye relief scope by leupold would never allow groups that tight, but out to 200 yards or so, you'd definitely group tight enough to bag what you were after, while both eyes open allowing you to be on target quickly.

Jeff said it well. Rifles are a bit like cars...it all depends on what your game is.

This was from a New Savage model 12 F/TR 0.308 with Leopold Scope Mark III 3.5-10X. Only help was a bi pod and my shoulder. I am not happy with the group though. I have an old Hi Standard 22 target pistol that can match it, on the bench, at 100 yards. I hope to do as well at 500 yards and twice as much dispersion at 1000 yards. with the rifle. Maybe a better load and glass bedding will help?

As to hitting game, at 100 yards or less, it doesn't even require a sight. Just point and shoot.

A bedding job and better loads would help. Although beware, if the bedding job goes poorly, that group will open right up. Having the action and barrel blue printed and squared up will also help. A good trigger or trigger job will help the trigger break cleaner and more consistently, also potentially adding a bit of accuracy.

You say that's your best, but what does your average look like? Shoot an honest 10 or 12..maybe more, measure em and take the average. That'll really show you how you're shooting, and how the gun performs.

If it shoots like that consistently, hell I probably wouldn't tinker with it none!

I love the new Savage. They have really turned things around in the last 10-15 years and now produce some of the most accurate rifles made. They pretty much dominate the production gun bench classes and the cast bullet matches. Their "accu-trigger" is a godsend in this day and age of 7-8 pound triggers on bolt guns. Funny, who would have ever thought everyone else would be playing catch-up with Savage?

Do you have any experience at 1,000 yards? We used to shoot 3-4 times a summer down at Ft. Lewis on their "KD22" ("known distance" range #22). I'm rather proud to say I'm the reigning Ft. Lewis 1,000 yard black powder champ, shooting my C. Sharps '74 in .45-2.6, having won the last couple of matches fired there. Anyway, I digress. 1,000 yard shooting is a whole 'nother ballgame.

The .308 ain't gonna cut it out there. It cannot handle enough bullet weight at enough velocity to maintain accuracy at that range. It will almost certainly have a 12" twist, which is not fast enough to handle the long, heavy bullets needed for that range. The old '06 is even pretty marginal, with its standard 10" twist and greater case capacity. In .30 caliber, we're looking at one of the magnums like the .300 Winchester, Weatherby, H&H, or similar. The guys winning at that range are using the very heavy for caliber bullets, like in the 200-220 grain range. It takes a big case, loaded on the stout side, to drive those fast enough to remain stable out to 1,000 yards. Your typical 168 grain .308 match loads that do so well out to 600 in hi-power competition are useless at 1,000. I've lost track of how many targets I pulled with beautiful profiles of 168 grain Match Kings in them, as the bullets tumbled and went through sideways. You're going to need more gun. For me, that would be good news...;)

You didn't say it had to be from a rifle, did you?

I posted this last year; 100 yds, 360 gr. hardcast with gas check, roughly 1600 fps. Freedom Arms .454 Casull.

The group measured 3.7" by 1.7". Not bad for a 6" gun that does intimidate you with its recoil.

Troy

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1191339786.jpg

Cep
 

I can drop 6 bombs from 4500 feet and average 11 feet.

I can drop a bomb from about 8" and it always goes down the same hole.

LOL! Jeff, the laugh of the morning :D

I don't have a picture of it, but I shot a three shot group that could be covered by a quarter at 200 yards with a bolt action .223.

Traded the gun because it wasn't that consistent. I'd shoot a NICE group, and then with the same ammo, it would go all over the place.

Here's what I did at 200 yards with iron sights on my K31:

http://www.zoto.com/frayadjacent/img...88a0-6cbae.jpg

I am new to the 1000 yard game. What about the Palma guys that shoot 155gr bullets? I understand they do pretty good. And then theres the 6.5x284 using 142gr bullets that claim to do even better? The load analysis shows the 155gr bullet fired at 2950fps with a ballistic coefficient of 0.52 remaining supersonic at well beyond 1000 yards.

I do want to know more. I talked to a guy that claimed he used 190gr bullets, seated 0.010 INTO the lands with his 308. I wouldn't recommend this as the seated into the lands will certainly overpressure the gun. As to getting the initial velocity of 2950 fps with this weight bullet, again don't try it. I did. It blew the primer right out of the pocket. A 30" heavy barrel helps, but I don't see any way with a 308 to go beyond 168gr bullets. But then again how do the Palma people do it?

My 45-70 with a Hornady synthetic tipped bullet will launch a 300 gr bullet at over 2000 FPS, but I doubt it will do as well as the 308 at 1000 yards.

Do you have any web sites for reference info?

Back before the War the 300 HH was the long range caliber of choich. The 3 win mag wasn't even a glimmer in anybodies eye back then.

I just bought a box and half of Winchester Military Match 300 HH, it was destined to be used at Camp Perry in the 30s. I also came by a Winchester pre War model 70 in 300 HH or 300 Mag as it was known before the advent of the 3 Win Mag. It is in new condition.

Back in the day...if you wanted accuracy you had a rifle barreled by Pope, Zischang or Schoyen later the God of accuracy mantle fell on AO Neidner.

In the 20s and 30s the US Military competed in International matches using modified 1903 Springfields. In 1928 they decided to try out a Swiss made Martini and 40 of them were made. They were all chambered for 30/06.

Long range(1000 yard matchs) really started in England in the late 1850s as military shooting matches. However the .577 didn't have the accuracy needed. So Colonel Whitworth developed a rifle with a Hexagon Bore and the "Small bore" military match rifle was born. The caliber was 451 using paper patched bullets. As time went on the rifles morphed into regular match target rifles leaving the military usage behind. By 1870 a new kid appeared on the block and that was the Rigby Long Range Target. Anybody who was anybody had one of those as it was the snaze.

The Irish, Scotch, British, Australians and Americans all fielded teams to compete. In 1874 the match was held in Creedmore, NY. The Americans were using primarily the Sharps and Remington Rolling Blocks breach loaders in 44/100. The others the Rigby muzzleloader. The American team basically won by default because one of the Irish team members inadvertantly shot at the worng target. That was enough to make the difference.

Americans from the mid 1840s on had a great interest in competition shooting matchs. The standard length was 15 Rods or 220 yards. The groups they were able to achieve with their old muzzle loading black powder rifles would put the test to anything manufactured today.

The biggest difference in the Palma matches is that everyone has to use the same stuff. Yes, a 155 grain Palma match bullet will hold well enough to 1,000 yards for these guys to compete against one another. First guy that shows up with a 220 grain Match King in a .300 mag will mop the floor with them. Kinda like showing up in your 997 Cup car at a vintage race; they all have fun racing each other, but pale in comparison to the latest and greatest. That, and as you have found, achieving the velocities they do is no easy task. Most are dangerously over-loaded. I think many use the .308 match brass made with the small rifle primer pocket in an effort to strengthen that web area. I've seen the same mindset at silhouette matches, with .243's and 6mm Remingtons loaded to the gills for the 500 meter rams. You didn't even want to stand next to these guys when they lit one off. Just plain dangerous.

Your best resource for information regarding this kind of shooting would be Precision Shooting magazine. It caters to the bench rest, hipower, and long range crowd. As far as I know, there is nothing that compares to it on the web. That, and Varmint Hunter magazine, although it caters more to the prairie dog blasters, has a great deal of information on precision long range shooting. You can get it by joining the VHA, Varmint Hunters' Association. There are a plethora of internet BBS's dealing with this, but they are a minefield of missinformation espoused by the missinformed. More so than most other topics on the web, they are best avoided if you need real information. Some of the better long range shooters have published books on the topic as well, like Tubbs. Check with Wolfe Publishing, the folks who put out Rifle and Handloader magazines (both excellent as well, by the way; just not much long range specific stuff).

Heavy bullets are your friend. That 300 grain .45 is a very light for caliber bullet. My long range match bullets are the RCBS .45-500 BPS, which comes out about 510 grains from my mold. That is my "light" bullet for short range out to 200 yards. My two long range bullets are a variation of Paul Jone's "Creedmoor" bullet at 540 grains and a Hoch 550 grain from one of their nose pour molds. Velocities run about 1250 fps from the .45-2.6, or just about 1100 fps from the .45-70.

Anyway, you can have a lot of fun with the .308 / 168 grain Match King at 1,000 yards. It's just not ideal, and will lack the precision you are after. It's not like they won't go that far... But, at realistic presures, it will be difficult to drive that bullet fast enough to keep it supersonic at 1,000 yards. Some will actually tumble in extreme cases. If you are just out to have fun, so what? If you want to do relatively as well as you have at 100 yards, you will simply need more gun.

The other thing to consider is the logistics of shooting at 1,000 yards. It's a three man operation. It is essential to have a guy in the pits pulling and marking targets, and a guy on the firing line spotting for you. Especially going in cold with no 1,000 yard sight or scope settings. Even with these three man teams, I have actually seen newcomers at the matches use up all of their ammo (and not get to shoot the match) just trying to get on paper.

And speaking of that scope... most don't have enough internal elevation to come up far enough for 1,000 yards. You might have to shim the bases with some tapered shims to get the rear of the scope high enough. There are some "ma & pa" manufacturers of these base shims that advertise in both of the above mentioned magazines. I would subscribe to both, stock up on some books, and start reading; there are a miriad of little details like this that need to be considered.

my beater 30.06 can shoot clover leaves. i had it pro bedded, the barrel treated and trigger work done.

but only with handloads. sierra game kings, 150gr, with reloader 19 powder. the rifle is ugly.

The 2nd Sniper school I attended was put on by the Army Green Berets and open to a few selected non-military personnel. On day one, the instructor told us: By the time you leave in 8 days, you will take a cold rifle and do a head shot on a MOVING TARGET at 600 meters.....Thought I could never do it. By the end of the class, most of us were.......

Jeff,

The 175 grain MK will also make 1000 meters out of a 22” .308 W / 7.62X51 gas gun. So will a number of different bullets such as Bergers, Lapua, Hornady, plus the 190 grain MK.

There are plenty of scopes that will make 1000 meters, especially if you use a 20 MOA base.

Having said that my AR-10 (Schneider 5P 22”) is best at 800 meters and in, though I have stretched to 1100 meters when everything lined up and I was lucky.

My .300 WM is a 26” 5r barrel on a 700 action in an A-5 stock. Badger bottom metal and mounting (20 MOA). 210 Bergers make 1000 meters a whole lot easier.

S/F, FOG

Yup, there are always thing you can do to make the .308 perform better at 1,000 yards. But, as you have noticed, the bigger cases with the heavier bullets do make it a whole lot easier. Bullet weight is king at that range. Actually, ballistic coefficient is king, but that is achieved in a large part through bullet weight, so it would be more accurate (pardon the pun) to say "heavy for caliber bullets are king".

I'm not familiar with the 20 MOA base. Does that mean it is adjustable, with 20 MOA of elevation, or is it a brand of base? The base really is critical to scope use at that range. Most scopes will run out of elevation, or have the erector tube so far off center as to distort the sight picture if cranked up that far. Traditional parallel to bore mounting usually won't work. That's not something most guys would even consider until they make their first trip to a 1,000 yard range.

I guess lots of things come to light on that first trip. Most folks, most certainly including me, go home with their tail between their legs. It's a hard game to play. Harder than it looks, but I'm sure you know that. Pretty darn addicting, though...

Jeff,

The 20 MOA bases have 20 Minutes Of Angle built into them already. Badger, USO, Ferrell, plus another 10 or so I can’t remember off the top of my head manufacture them.

The problem with specifying the 168 MK is that Sierra designed them for the 300 meter international game. The military use the 175 MK in 7.62. It gets to 1000 a whole lot easier.

Don’t have enough time to keep very current on the long range rifle work, or shooting in general. Try .22lr at 200 yds or so. Roughly comparable to .308 at a 1000. .22lr being more forgiving on range estimation and less so on wind with few .22lrs being able to hold 1.5 MOA at that distance.

S/F, FOG

Interesting you would mention the .22 LR's at 200 yards. I have a .22 LR insert set-up for my .45 caliber single shot match rifles. I got it from Lee Shaver years ago, for the purpose of shooting at 200 yards to emulate the big .45's at 1,000. It's darn tough to get squared away for practice days at 1,000 yards, so most "practice" was just shooting the matches. The .22 LR insert allows me to shoot at my local range, ten minutes from home, all by myself, at 200 yards and get in some meaningful practice in doping the wind and all of that. Plus, it gets me out from under the whole chore of producing practice ammo and cleaning up the black powder mess afterwards.

We used to shoot formal 200 yard rimfire matches. That is just about one of the toughest rifle games there is to play. What the wind does to those poor little .22's at 200 yards would have to be seen to be believed by most shooters. It's an awful lot of fun, and way cheaper than unlimbering the big guns for long range. It always seemed more relaxed than the big bore matches, too. I think because it's almost laughably frustrating (after shooting centerfires at 200 yards) and no one really expects much. The slightest unoticed puff of wind, and you're screwed... I've never seen so many bewildered, laughing, grown men at a shooting range. I wish we would pick it up again.

What he failed to mention is that target is 275 feet in diameter ;)
J/k

Winchester mdl 52, Remington mdl 37, Springfield mdl 1922 MII. The best in 22LR.

Springfield Aresnal built 6 Match Target 22LRs in the 1920s. The reason they didn't build more is the fact that their standard MDl 1922 was so accurate that they didn't need to build Match Target models. Today those Mdl 1922s are underpriced for what they are. One thousand $$$ will buy a real nice one.

Jeff,

I know about the savings in time and money. Plus compared to centerfire you need better follow through, don’t know about the black powder stuff as I have little experience but suspect you need good follow through as well.

I have about 220 meters on my property so it makes it pretty easy. The wind can be tricky as you can be protected from a cross wind and still have a cross wind 40-60 meters from the target. I prefer to blame misses on unseen crosswind component than on the trigger puller .

S/F, FOG

I can shoot 600 yards and keep it on my own property, but 1000 yards is hard to come by, even to practice. I hear that the bullet doesn't go to sleep for at least 200 yards. I take that to mean that the bullet is still affected by the gun muzzle blast for at least that distance. I can believe at least 100 yards of this story. But what happens to the bullet after this point? I can't think of something radical that could happen to it. Maybe a gust of wind? But the same gust should affect the bullet at 100 yards, shouldn't it?

When a bullet "goes to sleep" it has started spinning about its longitudinal axis, just as we would expect it to from a rifled barrel. Prior to that, it is spinning about a secondary axis of revolution, or wobbling. Picture the difference between a quarterback throwing a perfect spiral and throwing a wobbly one. Bullets do the same thing. "Going to sleep" is when this secondary revolution stops; it quits wobbling. Lots of things affect when this happens; rifling twist, velocity, bullet weight and shape, atmospheric conditions, etc. Muzzle blast does not. The expanding gasses behind the bullet decellerate so rapidly when they hit the atmosphere in front of the muzzle that they have no affect whatsoever. This secondary revolution does have a dramatic affect on a bullet's ballistic coefficient, so until it "goes to sleep", we do indeed see a greater affect from any gust of wind.

Yes, the same gust of wind affects the bullet at all ranges. It's just that the affect is more pronounced at longer range. Whatever deviation from the intended line of flight that was imparted at 100 to 200 yards, before it "went to sleep", will carry on for the entire flight of the bullet. Plus, unless the wind dies right when the bullet "goes to sleep", it will continue to affect its flight. It is amazing just how much affect wind will have at long range; far more than one would expect.

I have seen guys run out of windage adjustment in their scopes or iron sights at 1,000 yards. My match rifles have 40 minutes of windage available on the rear sight. That is 400 inches, or 33 some odd feet at 1,000 yards. I have run out of adjustment on the rear at times. That's why I also have windage adjustment on the front sight. Now imagine needing that much say, left windage on one shot, then the wind dies or changes direction for the next. And that's just a side wind. Head and tail winds affect elevation, just not as much. Wind doping, both your own, and that of a good spotter, is critical at that range. Like I said, lots of guys crawl home with their tails between their legs after their first day. On gusty days, it's not unusual to see guys use up their ammo and never consistantly get on paper. And that paper is ten feet square...

Clearly, anything we can do to minimize wind drift will make it easier. This is where bullet weight and the attendant high ballistic coefficient is our friend. Any given cartridge in any given gun is constrained regarding how much energy it can produce by powder capacity and allowable pressure upon firing. It will shoot a light for caliber or a heavy for caliber bullet with about equal muzzle energy. The lighter one is simply going faster. Intuitively, we would think it would be the better choice for less wind drift. It spends less time in flight, so therefore the wind has less time to act on it, right? Not exactly...

Wind drift is a function of deceleration. Deceleration is a function of ballistic coefficient. Heavier bullets have a higher ballistic coefficient, and decelerate less. They are markedly less affected by wind. This would be a lot to go into in a typical PPOT sound byte, so if this interests you, check out the Handbook fo Shooters and Reloaders by P.O. Ackley and the Cast Bullet Handbook from Lyman. Both have excellent articles on exterior ballistics, complete with all of the equations you will want to see to help clarify what happens to a bullet in flight. Suffice to say here that heavier is always better, assuming your rifle has the twist rate and enough horsepower to stabilize it. That, and wind is the single biggest factor in long range shooting; a far bigger factor than most realize. Until you have tried it...

As a related aside, this is where every single movie or TV show or whatever completely falls appart when attempting to portray either some hero or villain sniper. These guys hit things at unthinkable ranges in unkown winds on the first shot. Once we are out past 300-400 yards, anyone who has tried it will laugh at the improbability of this. Wind drift on an average day gets to be several times the width of a man. Yes, we hear the real life stories like the current Afgan theater "record holder", the Canadian that dumped a guy at over 1,500 yards with his .338 Lapua. Guaranteed he had fired repeatedly at that range and, with the aid of a capable sppoter, "walked" his shots on target. He undoubtedly missed several targets before the other guy's luck ran out. This game is a lot harder to play than in the movies, kids...

Jeff,

The Canadians used a .50 on that shot. Scuttlebut is that they were actually trying to disable the vehicle they were standing in front of but hit the bad guy on their 1st shot.

S/F, FOG

Oh, o.k. I heard it was the .338. So he actually "missed" and became a legend...

Jeff,

That he was shooting at the vehicle is scuttlebutt. Makes sense when you look at the range, target size, etc. Kind of like Billy Dixon’s shot, others have replicated it but not on the 1st shot.

S/F, FOG

Two of the unluckiest guys in the history of long range shooting; that unfortunate Indian on his horse at Adobe Walls and that Afgan rebel standing on the wrong side of his rig.

Mike Venturino took a bunch of old buffalo guns out to some Army range (I believe in New Mexico somewhere - where is that Charles Keifner when we need him?) that was equiped with radar used to track the flight of projectiles. He got some great data while there. One of the more interesting datapoints was just how steep the bullet path was from that Big Fifty at the range that Billy nailed that guy. Essentially, that poor guy could have been just a few feet closer or further away and the bullet would have passed over his head or impacted at his feet. Just wasn't his day...

Whats really fun is using the sight ladders on an old mauser for some long range adjust-by-dust fun...