Re-introducing shame into society is intended to prevent the poor behavior in the first place, not necessarily to correct the bad decisions/behavior that have already occurred.

how ya gonna do it? Sounds nice from an authoritarian point of view, but what's your practical solution for introducing shame into the societal conscience?

Superman,

Impressed in the most positive way. I do not want to sound like a brown nose and I have certainly disagreed with your thoughts before, but compiling 90% of the contents of your posts in this thread makes for excellent reading. Yes, I happen to agree with you on this, but it is also a joy to read your dispositions and the content is displaying both considerable insight, well weighted arguments and empathy. A breath of fresh air for sure.


Waiting for the opposition agreeing I would make a competent fluffer.. :D

Last time I checked, I didn't ask those people to procreate either. SmileWavy

They humped and now they can't handle the consequences. How is that my responsibility?

I was responding to the question that followed Legion's post. I stated in another thread that re-introducing shame into our society is virtually impossible, since the status quo is considered to be progress ("tolerance").

To quote a Catholic priest I overheard the other day: "F*ck the children!"

America minus 1 actually. Berettafan agrees with the moron president this time.

Markus, I appreciate the kind words, I really do. It is widely known that a "liberal" thinker in my country might be close to the middle of the political spectrum in Europe. Heck, I think a "liberal" here could be a "conservative" in some European locations. So.....I am aware that my thinking is probably shared by a fair proportion of Western Hemisphere thinkers, not counting America. So.....perhaps what you are noticing is the somewhat rare observation that an American might have a balanced view of public policy. I guess I'm asking the question and perhaps I will start a thread for this. I think the world, and especially Europe, find American politics interesting. Well, perhaps not so much interesting as amusing. Very conservative. And very glamour-oriented. Appearances are more effective than SUBSTANCE.

I hope to follow the American political selection process next year, as a European. Even though I am not a European. I hope to maintain some emotional distance, and think of it as entertainment. It would probably make much more sense in that light.

At any rate, back to public policy. I believe in government. Just as I believe in co-ops, groups buys, credit unions and labor unions. It's because I think it's all about PEOPLE. And I think we can accomplish a secure and prosperous community. Not by isolating ourselves from each other, and butting heads in furious competition. Sure, competition is fun and productive, but so is cooperation. Mutual goals. Teamwork. America is not about teamwork. These nitwits I argue with here prefer a more competitive, more independent and isolated society. Isolated from each other.

I was recently at one of those motivational things where the consultant had us play a game. I don't recall the rules exactly, but by the time the game was over and results tallied, it became clear that if players cooperated, their combined AND individual scores would be higher than if they competed. Naturally, they competed. And in doing so, they minimized their individual and groups scores. Had everyone cooperated instead of playing the competitive strategy, everyone's score would have been higher than their actual scores were. Again, there is a BIG place for competition. It is fuel. I enjoy it. It is the American Way. But gosh........couldn't we set that aside for just a moment....just long enough to minimize misery and maximize opportunity and resources?

Okay. You shouldn't encourage me, Markus.

balanced? ahh, not sure about that respectfully. making generalizations like 'American's didn't support the veto' is not really balanced.

here is one to get your head around - if 'American's' wanted the US out of Iraq, then Congress would have the balls to defund the troops...

it is hard to interpret what the majority of people think in this country when all we hear about are the minority interests and 'needs' of a few select groups. (this is not a statement about race or ethnic background)

Hot damn is that the truth!!!!!!!!

The last time a real majority got listened to was on the amnesty bill. It does happen occasionally.

My Father told me something once which I'll share here, "son we get the leadership and leaders we deserve".

It took me until I was in my 20's to understand what he was saying. In my view, what he was saying wast that if we don't voice our views and speak truth to power, whatever power that is not hearing us, then when we get bad leadership from either political side, we deserve it.

for that hated Clinton, this statement applies, for those that hate Bush, it applies.

The problem is not so much ideas as development of ideas.

The (true) conservatives are right that we need people to be more responsible.
The (" good") liberals are right that we are all in this together and some people need more help than others.
No one on the (extreme) right seems to care that the rich get many breaks and sweetheart deals and the benifits of nepotism but they whine if a poor slob gets a break.
Why is it that the guy building the stuff can be sh****canned after years of good, honest , American labor and he has nothing to fall back on and the guy who runs the company into the ground gets a colden parachute ?
Why do the labor unions and lawyers and insurance comps. who are supposed to look after those peoples futurs make it impossible for those businesses to survive?
Why is it the neo-cons want to fight a war and not fund it (with taxes which is the only way to do it cause Rep won't shrink gov any more than the dems and NO WAR EVER has NOT been funded by taxes)
Why do the libs want to cut and run if it will create a more unstable world ?

These (among MANY others - our economic worldwide viability - our kids being well educated, Race, STILL? etc., etc.) are BIG problems and things are changing fast and the noise is so loud because I think both sides know it.

The biggest problem is that INSTEAD OF WORKING TOGETHER AND COMING UP WITH SOME VIABLE SOLUTION - BOTH SIDES COMPROMISING TO MAKE IT WORK we have two sides that think shoving their one sided solution down the other sides throat is winning.

Why can't both sides put ideas into the meat grinder our genius founding fathers set up and make some tasty burgers ?

Fault of LEADERSHIP on EVERY LEVEL. is why not.
Government as entertainment or sport.

This still all might work itself out before the Chinese move in and sort it out for us but someone has got to step up and take control .

George Bush (speaking in the present) - give me a break ! He thinks he's Harry Truman ?
"THE BUCK STOPS ON YOUR DESK FOOL"

Congress - PITIFUL ON EVERY LEVEL and by every measure.

God help us all.

I don't disagree with what you said, however it seems like you think these kids are materialistic things that should be discarded. These kids might be the responsibility of the parents, but they are still human beings. I'd prefer a broke screw up, then a family rich screw up (read current president).

Maybe you should be more concerned with the neutering of idiots and unproductive people, and lazy spoiled adults who inherit the family riches and will always be protected by money (waste of money at that).

My point is that if the stupid on one end of the financial spectrum bothers you, you should be concerned with the stupid on the other end as well.

The stupid at the rich end of the spectrum don't end up wards of the state. That's the difference.

Superman,

Sounds like your motivational consultant had read up on Richard Dawkins.

Not a bad thing in my book. Altruism is unavoidably a very effect cover for egoism. It typically works too. The rest of the animal kingdom has 'known' this since before we discovered the advantages of a hot fire and a dry cave.

While that was nice with you congratulating yourself on you European (I never understood why this is considered superior) outlook and all, I wanted to pull this portion out.

You say you are FOR co-ops, groups buys, credit unions and labor unions because they are FOR the people. You seem to think that that means they are not competing against anyone. I purpose that these thing just shift the competition not eliminate it.

Co-op's & group buys = Lots of people getting together to LOWER the price on items. This means that the PERSON selling is at a disadvantage. That is a competition. Also these things are MEANT to COMPETE with large stores.

Credit unions = COMPETITION with banks an Credit Cards ect.

Labor unions = COMPETITION against corporations. I know you don't consider that these are people but if I have money in that company or purchase anything from them, you are competing against me.

Do you get my point. Your view that you are somehow doing away with competition is false. You are simply shifting the competition to something more palatable like a faceless corporation.

Sorry Markus, no offense meant, but I just don't see brilliance you do in Superman's posts. Perhaps this is because I am more familiar with American politics, perhaps because I disagree with almost everything he puts forth.

Much of the "information" he puts out there as "fact" is merely his opinion. He tends to respond to things he feels he has a strong answer for, and lets the stuff he is totally backwards on slide. He also has a tendency to be condescending when he has no reason to be. He is smarter than anyone else(he believes) and knows more about any subject you would care to discuss.

Superman, you are no doubt looking forward with unrestrained glee to the elections coming in '08, while I look forward with great trepidation. You will be vindicated as the Democrats sweep into power. The entire country, or more accurately the entire world, will be in big trouble if things play out the way both of us think they will. I hope I am wrong

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Six pages already and we still haven't figured out how to defeat the children?

Another attack:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21216913/?GT1=10450