War on Children

[JCF]

Originally Posted by Racerbvd

They get a free education, they choose not to take advantage of it. To be poor in America is a choice, you make poor choices, that is how you end up. On the Desert, try talking to some people who have been there, they will enlighten you to why the money isn't being thrown away.

And I didn't have to sell one of my race cars, but the reason I own them, and could take the time to help was simple, I went to school, and when the time came, I worked 2 jobs to go & pay for college, I made some bad choices in my life, but I made good choices too and now those have paid off, nother anyone else can't do, they just choose not too
If you can't feed em, don't breed em!!!

Yeah, you have it all figured out

back at you.

I've spoken to a number of vets - surprise - (one - two tours, twice wounded) and not one has told me they think that it is a noble cause.
It was a job and they were looking out for their buds was the general idea.
NOT ONE had anything good to say about the chicken hawk politicians who started the mess.

I also know people who work two jobs and are not capable of buying a car of any kind.
You are doing well - good for you.

You can check box # 2 if that makes you feel better.

[JCF]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

I wouldn't. Whether you agree with nat. security decisions of any president or Congress, it is something only the government can do. People can and should be responsible for their own kids and health insurance. I'd rather light my tax money on fire than give it to people who won't take responsibility for their own decisions. When that money is spent on nat. security, there is at least some outside chance of it paying off. No such chance in redistributing wealth. Gov't. money has never ever solved anything related to poverty and never will.

The New Deal was a good deal.

You call it national security - I call it a burning good money.

You do know how much health insurance costs , right ?
I know people with good jobs and kids and with mortgage payments, property taxes, utilities etc. there is not much left over.
Imagine what it is like for those without good jobs or family help.

And then a kid gets sick.

There is no excuse for a country as rich as ours to waste so much money on "national security" and then claim to have none to waste on the poor.
Prove to me the poor are all irresponsible and I might understand what you are saying.
Prove to me that those people that are uneducated are the result only of their not taking advantage of what they are offered and I would understand.

[Rick Lee]

No one claims this country doesn't have enough money to help the poor. It's just that the money belongs to the people who EARN it and not the gov't. to redistribute it. You're welcome to send donations to whomever you want. Either way, handouts do not help the poor at all.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

No one claims this country doesn't have enough money to help the poor. It's just that the money belongs to the people who EARN it and not the gov't. to redistribute it. You're welcome to send donations to whomever you want. Either way, handouts do not help the poor at all.

Sooooo, the $8 billion in CASH put on a few pallets and flown to Iraq and then "lost" was EARNED by the Iraqi's in receipt?

Does the Blackwater guard, getting $20,000/month salary, paid for by you and me with our taxes, EARN it more than the U.S. Army Private making $2500 a month?

neocon hypocrisy must be reconciled.

[Racerbvd]

Originally Posted by JCF

Yeah, you have it all figured out

back at you.

I've spoken to a number of vets - surprise - (one - two tours, twice wounded) and not one has told me they think that it is a noble cause.
It was a job and they were looking out for their buds was the general idea.
NOT ONE had anything good to say about the chicken hawk politicians who started the mess.

I also know people who work two jobs and are not capable of buying a car of any kind.
You are doing well - good for you.

You can check box # 2 if that makes you feel better.

Funny, I talk to many active military as well as retired vets, none speak as you say, their voting records shows this too. Well, you must hang out with some losers who make very bad desicions if they work 2 jobs and can't even buy a cheap, used car, where does their money go, up their noses?? You might want to look for a new group of people to hang out with, before they drag you down. How do you work 2 jobs and not be able to buy a $1K car unless you have make some very poor desicions in your like??

[Jim Bremner]

we need to have one more amendment to the constitution

that NO person should be FORCED to pay greater than 25% of his adjusted income to the government

[legion]

Originally Posted by Jim Bremner

we need to have one more amendment to the constitution

that NO person should be FORCED to pay greater than 25% of his adjusted income to the government

They already had to amend the Constitution once to have any income tax.

[Rearden]

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

Sooooo, the $8 billion in CASH put on a few pallets and flown to Iraq and then "lost" was EARNED by the Iraqi's in receipt?

Does the Blackwater guard, getting $20,000/month salary, paid for by you and me with our taxes, EARN it more than the U.S. Army Private making $2500 a month?

neocon hypocrisy must be reconciled.

You really think we "neocons" believe cash flown to Iraq and stolen is a good thing? We "neocons" don't accuse you of fawning over the billions lost to Medicare fraud each year.

Compare apples to apples. If you are going to state the fully loaded Blackwater salary, then be sure to include the Army private's training costs, base costs, logistics costs, food and health costs, etc.

You can't have it both ways. Do you want private contractors to guard diplomats, or do you want a larger military and more soldiers in Iraq?

[livi]

Alas, I lack the knowledge and, in many parts, the language skills to fully follow your political threads but,

I must say Superman is making quite an impression on me lately.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by Rearden

Compare apples to apples. If you are going to state the fully loaded Blackwater salary, then be sure to include the Army private's training costs, base costs, logistics costs, food and health costs, etc.

You can't have it both ways. Do you want private contractors to guard diplomats, or do you want a larger military and more soldiers in Iraq?

Let's do some math.

15 months (average length of tour for U.S. Army personnel)

Variable Costs:
Cost to taxpayer for one fully loaded Blackstone guard: $300,000

Cost to taxpayer for one Army Private: $37,500

Variance: $262,500

Fixed Costs:
Does it cost the taxpayer $262,500 to train 1 Army Private every 15 months?

there are some unknowns to do a cost comparison properly: how many Privates are there in the Army in Iraq, what about other lower ranks: Corporals, etc.

Just for fun because I don't know the numbers, but would love for someone like Seahawk or FOG to chime in, lets say there are 50,000 U.S. Army soldiers who fit the description above.

that would would mean it costs the taxpayer $13,125,000,000 ($13 billion) just to train these guys every 15 months.

is that a legitimate figure? I don't know, but it seems high. but what's better, the more U.S. soldiers in the Army, the more efficient those fixed costs are. Amortized over a larger military using the same training infrastructure, the American taxpayer is getting better bang for buck.

lastly, ABSOLUTELY, I want more U.S. troops in Iraq. I want a few 100,000 just for border control alone. and protecting U.S. Dept. of State personnel, who better than U.S. Military?

do we not have the best trained soldiers in the world?

that's the way I want it.

But as you know, since the days leading up to the war, I was against it. While hiking through New Zealand, catching news here and there, talking with about 100 Europeans, no one understood the urgency leading up to the War. Well, it's done, and we're there for decades. And that's something also I don't understand about Neocons. they point to Korea, Japan, Western Europe as FINE examples of U.S. Troops stationed around the world. You are quite proud of it, and boast about having Troops in Iraq for 10 to 20 years or more down the road.

REALLY? You're OK wasting taxpayer $ keeping 50,000 troops+ stationed in Iraq just sort of keeping the peace? I just don't get it. You're completely against helping U.S. Citizens (in a variety of ways and yes, once again, I'm totally against "end-of-cycle" spending), but you see no problem with the money spent to keep Troops in Iraq for decades.

Not very well thought out, don't you think?

I'm all for smart Military spending, we need it. Just wish our leadership didn't fall into the same trap as the current broken social spending we now have.

[Rick Lee]

I think it costs FAR more to train and equip every private in Iraq. $37,500 would be a bargain, even if every private worked for free.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

I think it costs FAR more to train and equip every private in Iraq. $37,500 would be a bargain, even if every private worked for free.

Can ya please go back and read carefully and stop with the kneejerk crap. the $37500 is $2500 monthly salary x 15 months.

Rearden submmitted that $20,000 per month for a fully loaded Blackwater guard compares favorably to a fully loaded U.S. Army Private.

Fixed costs are for training. Variable is his monthly salary.

[Rick Lee]

Yes, I understand that. But you also have to divide equipment costs by the number of soldiers using that equipment. Take your run of the mill $40 million fighter jet and divide $40 million by the number of people who work to keep it flying. Ignore salaries. They constitute a very negligible percentage of what we're spending there.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Blackwater has fighter jets?

Apples and Coffee Creamer?

Let's stay on topic and not make broad sweeping statements with no back-up.

[mjshira]

Originally Posted by JCF

Gee , thanks for clearing that up - that course you took in psychology is finally paying off.

What I am saying is that given we WILL BE TAXED - and seems to me my taxes have been going up lo these past 7 years as they went up the 8 before - If there was a box on the form that gave me the option of ;
1) my money being wasted on children.
2.) being wasted on fighting endless wars for unclear ends.

I would choose the first.
Maybe YOU need to feel a little more guilty.

why bash me? I didn't bash you... don't assume you know my political view.

I don't feel guilty because I accept the fact that I can't personally stop all the negative things that happen in the world and I can't take responsibility for those outside my employees, my family and friends.

I don't mind rendering unto the gov't a third of my income, its a high percentage, but I can live with it. What I struggle with paying as much over that amount as I do.

[artplumber]

Why don't those who support this bill admit to what it is?

The dems put forth the bill with it written in a way that they knew 1. President will veto, 2. they don't have the votes to override. Why? to make it an issue in the upcoming elections that sounds good - SAVE THE CHILDREN, REPUBLICANS HATE THE POOR and the CHILDREN. EVIL REPUBLICANS!, VOTE DEMOCRAT for EVERYTHING!

It is a ploy/tactic with the sole intent of getting "universal healthcare" piecemeal instead of the original Hiliary way.

[Tobra]

Originally Posted by livi

Alas, I lack the knowledge and, in many parts, the language skills to fully follow your political threads but,

I must say Superman is making quite an impression on me lately.

Do not despair, you are not missing anything of consequence

It is not one or the other, it is both, you are arguing about proportion then, n'est pas JCF? I would hazard a guess that significantly more of our federal budget is spent on social programs and infrastructure rather than defense programs

[mjshira]

But you forgot one thing, those that support this 'logic' will then get to 'feel' better, like they care and ever more, they'll know that some 'smarter' people will be making decisions with the funds and for those people that can't or don't know how to, make decisions for themselves.

I wonder how this nation got built with out all these programs... Oh wait, I guess when people had to, they did take personal responsibility.

[Jim Bremner]

guy's GET BACK on track.

the ARGUMENT is whether or not America should be a socialist nanny Government

Or it should remain Home of the FREE and the BRAVE

or just some other week-kneed "why should I work when the Government will take care of me.

I've been poor enough after my divorce, raising my two son's that I could have gotten the Government cheese.

I didn't stick my hands out to be a burden on the Citizens. I worked 6 days a week to make ends meet.

At the end of the year, I got $2,600 back in taxes......More refunded to me than what I payed.

If we keep handing out the cheese, too many people won't get up off of their asses and pull themselves up by their boot straps.

[Scooter]

Originally Posted by Superman

Okay, so you guys agree with Dubya's veto decision? Okay. America does not.

I am an American and I agree with Dubya's veto.

No disrespect toward your opinion Sup, but I can't agree with your statements on this subject. Bush cares about children. He simply does not agree with the bill that was presented. We are all intelligent enough to see the difference, aren't we?