Any know your Schutzen

[Henry Schmidt]

I just acquired these rifles and I thought some of you might enjoy the pictures.

Information from Bud Welsh:
The first gun is a German Schutzen, system AYDT as it says on the breech block. It has one of my barrels and I made the bullet mold. It is a shooter , not a collector. Made for offhand shooting on the Schutzen targets at 100 and 200 yards. The one barrel has a false muzzle for bullet seating from the muzzle using the aluminum guide starter and a rod to push the bullet down to the chamber. The other barrel is a breech Loader.

The second is yet to be identified. Any help identifying it would be helpful.
I have more pictures if that would help.

[masraum]

Well, I don't know diddly about that sort of thing, but it's a darn purty gun. Very cool.

[Steve F]

Can't help you but , Man That is Puuuuurty

[futuresoptions]

I am guessing here, but I say not mass produced out of Taiwan.... Reaaaaally nice....

[Jeff Higgins]

The second one appears to be Austrian made on the British Martini action. The stamping that looks like a bird with the number "1" on it was an Austrian proof mark, and the crown with a "B" or an "R" under is an old British proof mark, either "blackpowder" or "re-proof".

Anyone and everyone made rifles on the Martini pattern in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Kind of like the '98 Mauser some years later. They were very popular as target rifles at the time. I can't tell who made this one from those photos; any other markings?

[Joeaksa]

Very nice!

[targa911S]

Wow!

Tabs? Frenchy? Out of my league.

[RPKESQ]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

The second one appears to be Austrian made on the British Martini action. The stamping that looks like a bird with the number "1" on it was an Austrian proof mark, and the crown with a "B" or an "R" under is an old British proof mark, either "blackpowder" or "re-proof".

Anyone and everyone made rifles on the Martini pattern in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Kind of like the '98 Mauser some years later. They were very popular as target rifles at the time. I can't tell who made this one from those photos; any other markings?

Jeff is 100% correct. Caliber is 7.7mmx56R (but before firing, do a chamber cast to ensure that it has not been changed by some previous owner). The engraving style is Germanic so the probable conclusion is a English Martni action, Austrian (most likely Tyrol stocked and engraved) pre-WWI.

Nice period piece.

[Henry Schmidt]

These are all the markings I can find.

[Joeaksa]

Krupp-Steel.... hard to beat that!

[Jeff Higgins]

Sorry, but I can't tell you much more right now about that second rifle. I'll dig through my old references and see if I can find more. Ned Roberts wrote a bit about old Schuetzen rifles, and Ken Waters added a bit to at least one of his works. I've got some other stuff I'll look through as well.

Schuetzen is a fun game. It is shot both from a rest and offhand, scope and iron sights, at either 200 yards or the more traditional distance of 40 rods, or 220 yards. In the old days of black powder and early smokeless powder, each competitor would fire one round and retire to the back of the line to reload his rifle and prepare for the next shot. Maybe to quaff a bit of beer as well... There were usually 10-12 or more people at any given target position down the firing line, each taking his turn to fire one shot for score. A full target was ten shots, with the center ring being worth 25 points, and only about two inches in diameter, or a bit more. 250 points was a perfect score; top offhand shooters typically shot in the 220's and 230's on that target. Top rest shooters were solidly in the 240's.

The German made rifle in the first picture is what is know as a "breech/muzzle-loader". The bullet is inserted from the muzzle, just like a muzzle-loader. The "false muzzle" is first pinned to the front of the barrel, and is used as a guide to ensure the bullet goes in straight. The ramrod has a depth stop on it, set at a depth very meticulously determined by a great deal of trial and error to produce the best accuracy. It's usually about 1/8 to 1/4 inch in front of the case mouth.

Yes, there is a cartridge case. It is inserted in the breech end, just like loading any other rifle. It just doesn't hold the bullet, which has already been seated in the barrel ahead of it. All the case holds is the powder, a primer, and a light wad to hold the powder in. Once it is chambered, the rifle is ready to fire. Most Schuetzen rifles only have one case used in them for life; that case fires every shot that rifle will ever fire. When you fall to the back of the line, you pop the spent primer out, clean the case, re-prime it, and re-charge it.

There are a lot of advantages to the breech/muzzle-loading system. The chief advantage is that the bullet never has to jump from the case to engage the rifling, risking going out of concentric with the bore. It also won't "skid" into the rifling, deforming it in doing so, because it is already firmly engraved.

One of the other popular ways to load a Schuetzen rifle is what is known as "breech-seating". It is essentially the same idea as muzzle-loading the bullet but, as the name implies, the bullet goes in from the breech. It's still not in the case, however. It is inserted in the breech by means of a false case, with a plunger in it. The plunger protrudes out the back where the primer would normally be. A lever mechanism that slides down into the breech block mortise is then used to push on that plunger, forcing the bullet forward and into the bore. The plunger is adjustable for depth, just like the ramrod has a depth stop, so the shooter can optimize where the bullet is seated in front of the case. Once the bullet is seated, the case is loaded the same way as in the breech/muzzle-loader.

Anyway, fun stuff. Lots of little gadgets to play with. Most matches back in the day took all weekend for a competitor to get his 40 shots in, with ten round matches for the four different classes (offhand with iron sights and scope, rest with iron sights and scope). It was a real carnival atmosphere, with wives and kids along for the weekend, and entertaining themselves while the men shot the match. Big banquets in the evenings, picnics during the day; a real social event. Oh, and much beer was consumed by all, including the shooters, during the match. Most would find their shooting improving to a point, then possibly deteriorating as they may have had a bit too much. The top shooters' names were household words, every bit as famous and admired as modern day sports figures.

[Henry Schmidt]

Hi Jeff thanks. You are a fountain of knowledge.
Here are a few of the gadgets of which you speak.
Mussel loading tool
breach loading tool
bullet mold

[Henry Schmidt]

The second barrel is for a relatively standard cartridge.

[targa911S]

Again...WOW!

[tabs]

One of my friends..Tom Rowe wrote 2 books on Scheuzen Rifles...American and European...
Each gun is worth in the 1500 to 2000 range....the Euro guns just don't command the dinero...

Tom is also known for editing and publishing a set of books on the NY Firearms Trade..by Swinney and for a set of books on the English SS Falling Blocks. Tom also has a collection of English and Sharps target rifles to die for. He is currently working on a book about POPE rifles where each known example is shown or listed by SN. I have read the rough draft of this book. Further he is working on a book about the long range Creedmore matches and rifles of the 19th century.

Winchester, Stevens or Ballards are worth considerably more..

[Jeff Higgins]

Cool stuff, Henry. The .32-40 was one of the most popular chamberings in Schuetzen rifles back in the day; it worked well with black or the early "bulk" smokeless powders. It was used in all three guises as well; breech/muzzle loader, breech seated, or in fixed ammunition.

One thing, though - that jacketed bullet has to go. The Schuetzen purists will drum you out of the corps Did you get a bullet mold for the .32-40? Or are both barrels .32's, so you can use the same mold for both? If not, Lyman still makes all of the traditional molds that were popular in this caliber, and Paul Jones will cut custom molds for it as well. Those are Lyman blocks your friend used to cut his mold, and Lyman handles.

[Joeaksa]

Our instructor in Berlin when we got our Jagerbrief had one of these weapons.

He did it "old school style" and showed us how they conducted a meet in the old days. Jeff got it spot on, including the massive amounts of bier!

[Henry Schmidt]

My next post will be a flintlock.
Break out your reference books you gun gurus.

Thanks for all the help.