I don't really agree with that theory.

You might be forced to make a head shot, a hostage rescue shot, a long range shot, who knows. You could see a guy across a 6 lane highway beating up a cop, take his gun, and put it to the cops head to execute him.

It would suck to not be able to intervene because you have an inaccurate point defense gun.

Also, i find that the smaller a group you can shoot when calm, the smaller the group you'll also shoot while you're all juiced up with adrenaline. I have this view because of my experiences hunting live game.

I can do this with my LCP at 25 feet (I jerked the trigger on the last shot and yanked the bullet low into the 9 ring- user error), should i take it back and get a gun that's less accurate?

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...s/488f274e.jpg

Should i not believe that it is a net benefit that my P7 can do this at 10yds with full power 9mm+P JHP ammunition? Something very few service grade pistols can do.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...holepsprt1.jpg

I believe in accurately placed shots. I think they trump caliber, and i think they trump bullet type. All other things being close to equal, i will choose the more accurate pistol, rifle or shotgun every single time.

Wow, first you're helping cops, now you're even saving their lives.... :D:D That is 100% shepherd right there :D ;)

I agree on the accuracy though, just like a slide ruler, a gun should be precise.
That little bit more of accuracy can only be a good thing when it really counts.

Would it be accurate to say "You get what you pay for" with a carry weapon?

Also... Does anybody know how far the average self defense shot is?
Or how far are you from the target when you're actually defending yourself?

Someone must have collected the statistics.

This data is available for police gunfights, albeit scattered across multiple datasets.

It shows that long range shooting, high cap magazines, and combat reloads are just the stuff of fantasy. Lots of gun buffs watch too many movies.

The vast majority of police gunfights are at 10 feet or less. The typical number of shots fired per officer is 3 to 4. The probability of a hit is low, from 15% to 40% depending on datasets. The number of shots fired per officer is higher, and the probability of a hit is lower, when there are multiple officers shooting ("bunch shooting"). The typical gunfight lasts a few seconds to several seconds. It usually happens in darkness or low light.

I haven't found data for self defense citizen shootings, and there probably is none. Police departments collect officer shooting data for analysis and training. There is no-one collecting this data for CCW shootings - which are extremely rare, anyway.

Read away:

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf

I would say as a rule of thumb it is, but there are some smoking used gun deals out there that can skew the rule. Also, there are a few really inexpensive pistols that shoot beyond their $ value.

So are you proposing we all use 5 shot revolvers and do all our training at 10 feet or less?

Or should we prepare for scenarios that might happen, that HAVE happened to others in the past? I think we should. A lot of shootings require a lot more than 5 shots fired, and some shootings do require a magazine change or reload. Is it the norm? Certainly not, but we are not carrying a gun because we're counting on the norm, are we? I can post an awful lot of stories that required more than 4-5 shots fired. I do pretty much agree with you on the mag change argument- they are probably very rare in real gunfights, but that's not stopping me from carrying an extra mag or two. I'd feel pretty stupid if i got into a gunfight and ran out of bullets.

CCW shootings are probably not as rare as we think, especially as CCW holders proliferate among society.

Some good info here on this google link:
http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=what+really+happens +in+a+gun+fight&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2, or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=a404a1c26a268bba

"CLOSE ENCOUNTERS For many years, we have been taught that armed confrontations occur at very close distances (often times at arm's length), that few shots are fired and the person involved usually misses. These statistics were compiled from the FBI's Officer Killed Summary, which are released on an annual basis. Note that the operative word here is killed; these are officers that lost their confrontation. Have you ever wondered what happened with the officers that won? Did they do anything different to help ensure they would prevail?

In 1992, veteran police officer Dick Fairburn, now a trainer for the Illinois State Police, was commissioned by the Police Marksmen Association to answer this very question. Mr. Fairburn's original quest was to try and answer the stopping power debate of the time, in which he failed because the database of 241 shooting incidents was too small. However, what he did develop were some interesting trends that showed what officers did when they won the confrontation. One of the most interesting was the distances involved. While the FBI statistics show distances as being around ten feet, the PMA study showed the average distance being more like twenty. This makes sense, as distance will favor the person with the most training. This relates directly back to awareness as the sooner you see trouble coming, the more time you have to prepare for war. The PMA study also shows that the hit ratio per encounter was closer to 62 percent instead of the often-reported 18 percent. The history of gun fighting for more than a century has shown that the person that lands the first solid hit will usually win the confrontation. Hitting is hard to do without preparation and relying on luck is an invitation to disaster."

----

That's a really informative article, I usually read it every few months to refresh myself.

I think it is a question of priorities.

If someone has the time and energy to become truly skilled at everything - reaction shooting at 6 feet in darkness from different positions as well as long-range precision shooting, two shot drills as well as many shots with rapid reloading, etc - then, great.

But suppose one isn't expecting to become such a pistolero. What is the one thing that he should spend his time training for?

The data says, that one thing is: to hit a moving vital zone at <10 feet, with a shot fired in 1 second with no preparation and no time for stance or careful aim, in the dark, from any position including potentially after being knocked to the ground.

Police officers appear to hit the enemy less that 1/3 of the time in that situation. I seriously doubt that the average CCW'er does better. (Wasn't there a Pelican who fired on an armed robber, at point blank range, while laying on the floor - IIRC he either missed or grazed the guy's finger.) Such a low hit rate in the most common situation suggests a lot of work to do, before moving on to hostage rescue shots from across a six-lane road while speed reloading in a hovering helicopter, and similar "movie" situations.

Actually, the data you're looking at is for officers that were killed my friend.

Officers that prevailed scored 60% hits at an average engagement range of 20 feet.

Check the link i posted in my previous post.

Many CCW'ers are trained to a far higher level than the average cop, many of whom are not "gun people" at all, and who never shoot or practice on their own time. Any person carrying a gun should be able to hit a stationary man sized target in his vitals at 25 yards, in my estimation. Any hunter can probably be reasonably expected to outperform the average cop in a gunfighting scenario.

Problem is that so few CCW shoots are even reported in the news. The one here last weekend ended in three hits and killed the bad guy. Not sure how many shots the good guy fired though.

There was a case about 40 yrs. ago in TX where a guy did shoot a bad guy across a large hwy. He was a hunter pulled over in a rest stop and saw a bad guy on top of a cop, shooting him in the head. The hunter took the perp out from well over 100 yds. IIRC, TX DPS gave him a gold plated 1911 as an award for it. Obviously, the hunter faced no threat, so probably wasn't too stressed. Still, I bet it gets the heart pumping to even aim a gun at another person, let alone watch that guy killing a cop in progress.

THE VERY BEST TRAINING YOU CAN GET as a civilian................go to gunsite and buck up for their courses...................or as i have mentioned countless times JOIN A CLUB that shoots COMBAT WOMBAT!



combat wombat aint no punching paper from 7yds. from 7am til high noon you will shoot 325 rds in every position/various distances that you can think of and THEN SOME! moving targets/thru windows/thru doors/around corners/strong hand/weak hand/damn near behind yer back shooting. its FREEKING NUTZ! and every damn match THEY CHANGE IT TO SCREW YA UP AND MAKE YA THINK!


and i guurrantee yer gonna be crying "MOMMY" when it all over the 1st couple of times. i sure did. its a BEAATTCH! i was physically emotionally pyschologically DRAINED! i was soaked to the skin with sweat. it is FAST PACED and you will not realize the time fly by.


you have OEM outta the box class and HOT ROD CLASS! since i am a cheap azz we went with a ruger 22/45 and then jumped into a tactical solutions threaded barrel and compensator. we run against brownings and walthers mostly. HOT ROD class is run what cha brung. and there is some trick azz stuff out there with crazy azz OPTICS! we dont run optics so we are still in OEM class despite barrel change out.


the most fun and rewarding part of it are hitting the moving dinger dongers from inside a culvert pipe thats about 6foot long. what a hoot. once ya get the format down, its a gas.


if ya wanna buck up and shoot what yer gonna carry, have rob leatham(mr springfield) or his wife give you one on one instruction with yer 9mm or .45 or whatever the hell ya carry.


MONKEY SEE MONKEY DO....................watch rob slap leather quicker than spit and watch his drills for a couple of months and the other hot shoes and you will pick up real fast whats right/whats wrong/ and what REALLY WORKS in a COMBAT situation.


best money i EVAR SPENT and MORE FUN THAN SEX! my younger son and i broke the FUN BARRIER and LEARNED A HELL OF ALOT!

No, just the first two tables were for officer fatality outcomes, there is plenty of data there for all gunfights including where the officer survived. Read the rest of the article.

It makes sense that if you study only "successful" gunfights (officer survives), the hit ratios get higher (maybe that's why the officer survived) and the distances get longer (maybe everyone survived). You're deliberately skewing the sample, so you are skewing the data.

At the extreme, if you select gunfights where the suspect does not survive, I imagine you can get hit ratios up to 100% . . .

Personally, I'd be more interested in what went wrong in the cases where the good guy does not survive.

I'd also caution against drawing strong conclusions from small sample sets. A database of 200 shootings is less informative than a database of 1000s of shootings, is less informative than pooled databases of many 1000s of shootings. That is the nature of statistics. At the extreme, a single sample tells you very little - hence we don't conclude that citizen shootings take place at 100 yds with a rifle.

Some CCW'ers are trained, but most? I'm skeptical.

There's been a boom in buying of CCW guns, and plenty of those people go to the range a couple times and then never practice again - or are the people missing the paper at 6 feet, who we've all seen. Most of the people at my local range aren't even shooting at 25 yards, and they are doing well to hit a dinner plate at 10 yards with slow fire in good light.

I don't know about hunters - don't know enough of them - to say if their proficiency with a scoped bolt-action or an over-under 12 ga carries over to a snubby .38.

All the people I know who regularly carry also regularly practice. I'm sure they're not all doing the Hogan's Alley, tactical shoot house thing (I've done a few of those). But they're doing more than most cops do for their annual range quals. I make it to the range about twice a month. As long as I can competently shoot all the guns I ever carry with me, I'm satisfied. I almost only shoot paper plates at between 7-10 yds. Anytime I can't make real tight groups within the first 50 rounds I put through a gun, that gun gets sold or traded.

Exactly. I don't disagree with Odd Job, nor do I think that money spent on custom work is wasted. I just think that if you want to shoot your .357 better, instead of taking your spoon to a gunsmith and writing a check, it might be more economical to buy a used Single Six and shoot a couple thousand rounds. Likewise, spending on a 22/45 and trying to shoot it to death is probably going to pay better dividends than tricking out your 1911.

Of course that's pretty much the same as saying that shooting .22's in the backyard is fine, but the "Combat Wombat" shoots will be better prep for a life or death situation.

The only 2 pieces of advice I feel qualified to give about carrying a weapon are: Purchase a firearm you will actually carry, and shoot a lot.

If you aren't comfortable carrying the spoon, then you probably won't have it when you need it.

The way to improve your marksmanship is to shoot. Shooting a bolt rifle 100yds off of sandbags isn't really a hunting situation, but when all the mechanical elements are second nature, even bench rest practice pays dividends when shooting offhand at moving game. Rimfires offhand in the backyard is fun, a great way to spend time with the kids, and a super way to tighten those groups.

I agree with all of this.

It is useful to pick out the surviving officer stories and examine what their specifics were. it can help us to see what they did to win. (Which the article i linked to goes into). A few of the things it shows to me is that extending range favors the more trained shooter. (Ie, me). It also tells me that good marksmanship results in a higher hit rate. Most of the cops that fare well in gunfights are also the guys that spend extra time at the range and shoot distinguished.

A long range gunfight is extremely unlikely. Not impossible. Again, "Can't happen to me" is not a defense that will save your life.

Where hunting experience helps most is in the familiarity with "buck fever", that moment of adrenaline where you've got a live animal in your sights and you still take careful aim and make that shot count. A seasoned hunter will be used to taking life with a firearm, he'll be used to the adrenaline rush at the moment of truth. He'll have experience at killing that the non hunter lacks.

This is a hugely invaluable bit of experience to have, IMO.

You also have to think about how police gunfights differ from citizen gunfights.

A police officer is not just shooting to defend himself. He has a duty to pursue, to press the attack, and to apprehend a suspect. He cannot let the suspect run off into the neighborhood.

A citizen will only be shooting to defend himself, aside from some extremely rare cases (e.g. the 100 yd shot mentioned by Rick). So citizen gunfights will, logically, be at shorter ranges, on average, than police gunfights.

More reason, I think, why CCW'ers should focus on practical accuracy at short ranges under very bad conditions.

Obviously, most of us like to shoot tight groups at 25 yds. We're having fun with target pistolery. There's many aspect to recreational shooting, they don't all have to be pertinent to CCW, let's not fool ourselves that they are.

(Did you notice there was one dataset where the hit ratio was compared to the officer's pistol qualification score? There wasn't any clear correlation. Meaning, the officers' skills with a 25 yd paper target did not correlate to their ability to actually hit the enemy in a gunfight.)

My only piece to add is make sure that it is reliable. If you need it to go "bang", it better go "bang"!

I think one should be practiced at as many things as one can afford to practice in. I think if a shooter has skills at range, he should choose his equipment to suit those skills.

I think that in a gunfight- or in hunting- nothing is as important as shot placement. The more precise the better. I think accurate shot placement is the whole key. If possible, I want a gun that can put bullet after bullet in the same hole, over and over, as long as i do my part.

My P7 can do that. It's more accurate than I am, and I am pretty darned accurate.

I also think we should not think that just because 90% or some other x% of gunfights occur at X range that if it happens to us that we will face those conditions. If it happens to you, you could very well have a gun fight at 0 foot muzzle contact range. But you could also find yourself in that position where you can put down a bad guy on a shooting rampage and end a mass murder spree- IF you can make a precise 25 yard shot.

Don't think it can't happen to you. It can. Anything can happen, including nothing at all.

well, you guys got me to go to the range today. it was a lot of fun. my shoulder is now sore. the burris bipod on the black powder cannon is awesome. i also realized that i need my corrective eyewear when shooting with iron sights at 100 yds. my eyesight is not what it once was.

anyway, great thread, very informative. i think i need to get some reloading equipment for the handgun.

Hey, why do you keep saying "my" P7? You're making me sad. Am I going to have to go buy my own super 9?

I turned in my CHL for a renewal. They are backed up here - a wave of CHL applications came in after the Japan earthquake, go figure. So I am not a legal carrier for a few weeks.

Guess I will spend that time at the range, getting abuse from the .45 mini-cannon.

If you do want a P7 now is the time, because the police trade in prices are already going up as the supply dries up.

What could be had for $500 about a year ago- a "Grade C" shooter P7 trade in- is now going for $600 to $650. The grade A's are pulling down about $800 now. This time last year they were going for about $700.

Once the trade in supply is exhausted, you are going to see all of these pistols climb in value even more.

I don't know about that. I sold a hard chromed P7PSP with night sights a few years ago for $1100, exactly what I had into it. A week later CDNN got a huge shipment in and grade A ones were going for $599. A year later they briefly went for $499. Now they're back up slightly. But I bet another batch of police turn-ins hits the market within two years and drops it again. Besides, guns in general are a very good buy now because people overbought in 2007-08 and a lot of those folks need money now.

$800 is up "slightly"?

Grade C shooters are now going for more than Grade A's were about 2 years ago.

CDNN doesn't have any right now, but I'm sure they will get another batch soon. I'll probably go up to J&G tomorrow and see what they have. If you really shop, you can find deals on P7's. I am a very good gun shopper and don't buy in a hurry.

Is this the thread where i was saying the requirement to pull the trigger before field stripping some pistols is a stupid design that is asking for trouble?

Well, here's one case where it cost a guy a hole in his hand and leg:

I Shot Myself Yesterday

Opening post from above thread:

I SHOT MYSELF TODAY.

I have spent so much time reading about accidental/negligant discharges, thinking about gun safety. I've been cautioning my wife and son, stressing to them how careful we must be with firearms, because all it takes is one lapse in attrention.

Can't believe I shot myself yesterday.

I had my XD-40 with me in a company vehicle yesterday. It was about 4:30, time to go home. I had been field stripping (playing with) it several times during the day. studying it's mechanisms. Thought I'd do it one more time before heading home.

I dropped the mag, failed to clear the chamber. STUPID! Racked the slide, pulled the trigger to release it. BOOM!

In an instant, my ears are ringing, blood is everywhere. Meat was hanging from the side of my hand, blood dripping. Knew instantly I was shot in my leg, too. OMG! knew I had to get to the hospital, started the van, started driving. I then realized, "where's the gun"? Turned around, saw it in the parking lot, knew I had to get it. Went back, threw it in park, stepped out, got it. Started driving.

Didn't know how bad I was hurt. I was mainly worried about my leg, wondering if I had hit an artery. Didn't want to wait for an ambulance, wasn't sure it would arrive before I bled out. Traffic was heavy, waited for a couple of lights, but then turned on my flashers, started to weave in and out, jumping curbs.

Made it, pulled up to the wrong entrance. Backed out, went to where the ambulances come in. Thew it in park, leaned on my horn. No one came, leaned on it again. Female security guard came around the corner, "are you alright"? I said "No, I've been shot, I need help"! She seemed to be reacting in slow motion, trying to process it. She started heading that way, I yelled for her to please hurry.

They came scrambling out with a gurney, rushed me inside. IV"s are being stuck in me, sissors are cutting my pants off.

Moving along...I have to have surgery on my hand Tuesday. I was able to move my fingers, which is a good sign, but I'm going to have a bite missing from the lower side of my hand. They're going to use a skin graft from my leg to cover it.

The bullet went clean through my leg. Amazing, it missed the bone, didn't hit any major veins/arterys, didn't even hit any major muscles. Entry/exit wounds are about 8-9 inches apart, but the bullet kept to the surface, going through fatty tissue. It left some fragments in my leg (it was a hollow point), which are going to stay in there. Doctor says they shouldn't cause me any trouble, and may actually work their way out eventually.

Cops showed up, asking for details. They had to confiscate the gun, but they say I'll get it back. One commented "it's a good gun". Asked how long I'd had it, I said not quite two weeks. I can't use unfamaliarity as an excuse, though, I've had an XD-9 for a couple of months, same mechanism.

I feel so stupid. My ears are still ringing some, hope I haven't done any permanent damage to my hearing.

I'm actually able to walk on my leg if I move slowly. My hand hurts the most, going every day for wound dressing till my surgery Tuesday.

I'm definetely going to get wrote up, but I think my job is safe. No workers comp, since I was in violation of company policy having the gun. I'm hoping I can get back to work later part of next week.

I'm posting this as part confession, part warning. It...can...happen...be careful.

mistergus75

This doesn't sound like the fault of the gun.

The design requires you to pull the trigger when disassembling.

That is, in the eyes of many, a very stupid requirement that is asking for stupid people to shoot things stupidly.

I can't believe our high priest of personal responsibility is claiming a gun is at fault and of poor design because of IDIOTS who hurt themselves. Who cares if you have to pull the trigger to disassemble? If I had to put the muzzle in my mouth and pull the trigger to disassemble, it wouldn't be the gun's fault if I killed myself. Are you kidding me?

I'm a high priest of personal responsibility? ME?!?!

Since when?

Obviously a design that doesn't require you to pull the trigger to disassemble it (as is the case with the overwhelming majority of designs) has far less chance of an ND occurring.

That's like requiring a driver to floor the throttle on a car before shifting to park, it's really, really stupid. Just like people are.

It is a design that asks for trouble, where none need be present.

Idiots shoot themselves with p7s too snipe....

At a far lower rate than most designs, but yes, there have been ND's with P7s too. One NJ state trooper managed to have TWO ND's with a P7, shooting himself the second time. And that's a "trained professional."

It is true that there is no such thing as an idiot proof design, but that doesn't mean it's wise to tempt fate by requiring a cocked pistol to have it's trigger pulled everytime it is disassembled either.

Most ND's happen during administrative handling, while stripping/cleaning firearms. Requiring the user- who may very well be an idiot- to pull the trigger before disassembly has no real world benefit whatsoever, but a huge and obvious downside.

After lots of looking I picked up a Sig P250 Subcompact tonight on sale at Gander Mountain for $400. Despite Gander normally being overpriced on everything, this was a better deal than I could find anywhere online. 3.6 in barrel, typical Sig quality, 12+1 9 mm. I'm very happy with the purchase, now I need to get to the range and try it out. I'm definitely going to enjoy shooting a 9mm considering the ammo is 1/4 the price of my .45.

http://www.sigsauer.com/upFiles/cata...etail-Hero.jpg

Looks really nice. Good luck.

i have a ruger 22/45 that i have ALSO TRICKED OUT and shot 650 rds per match PLUS w/practice sight ins with my younger son. we DID TRY AND KILL IT! emphasis on try!


added TACTICAL SOLUTIONS COMPLETE COMBAT WOMBAT UPPER W/THREADED BARREL AND COMPENSATOR and PICATINNY RAIL for RED DOT!


we shot the HELL out of it(over a year-sometimes twice a month) and still continue to do so.

ITS ALL ABOUT THE CLEANING AND THE ...........................LUBE!


but truth be told........................practice with WHAT YER GONNA SHOOT/CARRY!

and anudder thang....................right now i am foaming at the mouth waiting for my NICKEL SMITH modelo 29 4" to arrive back from magna-port with quad(vier) ports in der geschutzen barrel. after it arrives DOKTOR NELSON FORD(thegunsmith.com) will wave his magic wand all over the double action side of things. hysterically(historically) smiths ALL have crappy double action triggers. we will do a light chamfer on the cylinder to facilitate ease of using speedloaders. it doesnt need much as smith back when it was produced had still made them with recessed cylinders. ie. the butt of the bullet does NOT stick up above cylinder. smith in a cost cutting move(1 less op) did away with this back in the 80's.


we are bouncing around whose night sights we will go with and we are bouncing around a longer cylinder release latch for quicker reloads also. these are avail at dillon here.


this is the all around mucho bad azz dont feek with me- mr puddy tat/mr oso negro/mr-mrs-miss rabid kritter/zombeez that need to be blown to smithereens spoon.


and with the correct garrett rounds, a damn good last ditch effort to save my azz against URSUS HORRIBILUS!



since it really is a life or death spoon we are sparing no pesos here. hang the expense.


carry spoons i will drop a boat load of cash into. i feel my azz is worth at least that much. but then i am addicted to the sport and have been for years and years and it really is starting to show. i usually do 1-2 maybe 3 a year if i can afford it if they are pistols. rifles usually just (1) taken to the very edge of insanity /OCD will be enough to break my bank when the fat lady finally sings and ya drop bucks on optics and mounts and slings and cases and spare parts and then................GO SHOOT THE DAMN THANG A FEW HUNDRED TIMES!

I have a lead on an excellent condition P7PSP for $600 if anyone is shopping.

What grade is it?

Is it a private owner, or is it a current trade in? How many mags? Does it have the tools?

i like it. now sit back with a six pak, tear the damn thing apart as per the instructions(remember those?), and clean it with q-tips and give it a lube job.



go blast the hell out of 200rds-3 different flavors and see what groups best and then stick with that flavor FOREVAR!



come home, grab another 6 pak, and tear it apart and LOVINGLY CLEAN IT WITH IN AN INCH OF ITS LIFE USING Q-TIPS.................and it will serve you well.



if a daily carry............once a week wipe down and use an airgun to blow out all lint dust crap from it and magazines. unload magazines that you carry and blow them out also and then reload.



and it will be a happy spoon. and as we ALL KNOW HERE.............................HAPPINESS IS A WARM SPOON..................YES IT IS!

Private sale, German police turn-in. Comes with two mags, two holsters, some ammo and all tools.