Home Electrical Advice? 240v In Garage

[jyl]

Can I get some advice. Trying to get a subpanel put in the garage, w/ 240v and 120v, to convert said pathetic excuse of a garage into a workshop. Issue is how.

House and garage are separated by a 4 foot wide walkway of poured concrete. Basically a dead zone - gets rained on in winter, fills with leaves in fall, visible from street so can't put bicycles there (even if locked - lots of bike theft around here). Just used to get from the driveway to the back yard.

The electrical panel is in the basement, on the exterior wall that borders the walkway, right at the driveway end of the walkway. The electrician is saying, look, you don't want an ugly naked conduit between house and garage, overhead across the walkway.

I'm (and he's) thinking, could either use the overhead route, support/conceal conduit in a "header" (not sure what's the right term) connecting house and garage, and build a gate under the header, so that the header makes sense as a overhead trellis thingy. Gate also helps with my leaf and potential bike theft issue. There is a gate at the other end of the walkway, so this would have some symmetry, and I could build it.

Or, could bring conduit out through the house wall, down the concrete part of the wall, cut a 4' long trench in the concrete paving and bury the conduit in there, then conduit goes into the garage. Cleaner solution maybe. I can't trench the concrete myself though (or can I?)

Here's a picture, if you're standing in the driveway about to walk down the walkway. Green line is one conduit route, purple line is the alternative.



O PPOT fount of wisdom - any ideas, comments?

As long as I have you - two other questions.

- The main panel in the basement is 125A and is full. Code will not permit him to replace it with a larger panel (something about location next to water line, window, location was legal when installed but not now, I don't understand it). Wife wants 240v in the basement to power her pottery kiln, plus a few 120v outlets for the other stuff one needs in a pottery studio. Electrician proposes to put a subpanel in the basement, in a legal location. With that, and the subpanel in the garage, the house would have three panels. Is that weird?

- I told him the garage needs to accommodate a someday-if-I'm-dreaming TIG welder. I looked up specs for home/hobby TIG welders, looks like the smallest needs 20A at 240v and the next size up needs 40A. So he proposes a 60A subpanel in the garage, one 40A 240v outlet, two 20A 240v outlets for saw etc, and some 120v outlets. Is that enough, you guys w/ home shops?

[Red88Carrera]

Here's what I would do...
Have him install a new 200amp panel in a legal location in the basement. Run your service to this panel and make it your main panel. This will make the existing 125amp panel a sub panel. That way you can move some of your loads to the new main panel as time and money allows. Feed the garage panel off of the new 200amp panel. I would go the overhead route unless you can get under the concrete slab. Cutting the concrete is easy, but getting through the wall portion won't be.

[jyl]

Hmm. The quote I received seems rather higher than I expected.

Basement: furnish and install 125A 30-circuit subpanel, one 50A 240v outlet, two 120v 2-gang outlets, one 120v 2-gang outlet for refrigerator, one 80 CFM vent fan w/ timer, one GFCI exterior outlet. $2250.

Garage: furnish and install 60A sub-panel, one 50A 240v outlet, four 120v 2-gang outlets, one GFCI exterior outlet. $2270.

Includes permit fees. I provide header or trench for conduit to garage.

So total $4520 for two subpanels, two 240v outlets, seven 120v outlets, two exterior outlets, one vent fan.

How does that sound?

Access is easy, full height basement w/ exposed studs etc, no pulling wire or crawling around.

[A930Rocket]

It sounds high. Guys are hungry for work, so shop it around.

Going over head in a header/beam/trellis would be cheaper and faster than cutting concrete. Plus, you don't have to worry about leaks from below ground penetrations.

[MotoSook]

I agree the quote is high. The existing service limitation is a problem. I like the idea of a new 200A main panel that subfeeds the existing panel and the 60A in the garage.

If it were my project, I would pay for the new main panel install at a legal location and have the electrician feed the old panel. The I would do the 60A panel in the garage myself. I'd run it overhead and do the gate under it.

It's not difficult and you're handy enough. You don't even have to install the 240V outlet in the sub panel now. Just do it when you eventually need it. Same with the wife's kiln.

I installed a 60A sub in my detach garage (trenches 40 ft between the house and the garage, installed conduit and pulled wires). It was a lot easier than I thought it would be. I had help from a guy who knew electrical work, but it was mostly me. Discussed the design with the inspector and asked questions when I needed to. They were more than happy to advise and the inspection went off without a hitch.

[jyl]

Yeah, I think the panels, breakers, outlets, fan, all the parts and materials would be $400 or roughly thereabouts. Permit fee seems like $350 max. So $3800 or so for time and labor. I'd be surprised if this was more than a day's work for a professional.

[jyl]

Soukus, lemme think about doing everything but the new main panel myself. That might be how it happens. Unless the next quote is much less.

[KarlCarrera]

JYL

Go the overhead route if at all possible.

Agreed, this price seems high if I understand what your trying to do. Shop around + surprisingly you can do alot of the work, check the codes and find a reasonable electrician to finish/help.

But your have something else to consider. Your service line feeding the panel was sized for that panel + at least one half. I'm guessing you have an alum. service line running to the house, #2 triplex if overhead or maybe 1/0 if underground. Adding this much additional load may cause voltage "drop" problems when everything is fired up.

See if your utility company will install a "recording meter" to help determine the actual max draw (load) that is existing. This will help you determine how much (if any) additional (service) work is necessary.

As an example my 150A panel is full, upgrading my panel is no problem, adding sub panels is no problem, but....loading my service cable (line) beyond allowable limits will only cause me voltage (drop) problems in the future. My service is UG and is 1/0 alum.

The additional load that your talking about may "undersize" your existing home service.

Just .02

Karl
88 Targa

[look 171]

I agree, even CA pricing sounds like a little bit on the high side for two sub panels with an open basement. Like Red88 said, a 200A panel in the correct location (call your elec. co. to send out a spotter so they can tellyou the exact location for the new panel to get a better bid). Have a sub panel in the garage with a 30A 240 for the saws and another 30 or 40 amp 240 for the welder. Depending on how extensive wood shop you are planning to build, you might want another 240 for the planer or jointer.

Personally, I would cut concrete and run it under ground. If a trellis is in the plan, then that would be the way to go because you are going to build it anyway. I think a trellis looks good.

[Zeke]

Connecting 2 buildings can be tricky; they move. Most people would put a slip joint on one side if you do this. Actually, if you permit this, you might find some resistance from the inspector about this so called header.

On the flip side, it will be difficult to cut the concrete right up to the walls. I'd say this is a bit of a sticky wicket.

[jyl]

Hmm. Arched "header" then, of light enough material that it won't be structural (like, a 1/4" plywood shell that merely conceals the conduit) with conduit bent to the curve so it can flex the 1/4" or so?

[HarryD]

Do NOT cut your concrete, you will regret it.

As far as estimating, figure that a one guy with materials will cost you about $600-1,000/day.

How many days you ask?

Setting a panel and installing all of the stuff will take 2-3 days. So for two panels, you would expect to see him take 4-6 days. Something around $4,000 may not be that far off the mark.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by jyl

Hmm. Arched "header" then, of light enough material that it won't be structural (like, a 1/4" plywood shell that merely conceals the conduit) with conduit bent to the curve so it can flex the 1/4" or so?

That aint gonna to fly.

Cut up concrete looks like crap especially if its only 10-12". I would bust it up to the nearest joint.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by jyl

Hmm. The quote I received seems rather higher than I expected.

Basement: furnish and install 125A 30-circuit subpanel, one 50A 240v outlet, two 120v 2-gang outlets, one 120v 2-gang outlet for refrigerator, one 80 CFM vent fan w/ timer, one GFCI exterior outlet. $2250.

Garage: furnish and install 60A sub-panel, one 50A 240v outlet, four 120v 2-gang outlets, one GFCI exterior outlet. $2270.

Includes permit fees. I provide header or trench for conduit to garage.

So total $4520 for two subpanels, two 240v outlets, seven 120v outlets, two exterior outlets, one vent fan.

How does that sound?

Access is easy, full height basement w/ exposed studs etc, no pulling wire or crawling around.

I don't know about permit costs there. It should be about half that plus permits.

[jyl]

Wow, Harry, I didnt think installing a subpanel, 3 circuits, and 6 outlets in a garage or a basement would take 2-3 days per panel. It doesn't seem like that much work.

Wd, permit fees are $120 per panel or service, $11 per circuit, so I'm thinking $300-400. Not positive of that.

[billybek]

I wouldn't bring the conduit through the basement wall below grade.
Even if I was going to do the under ground route, I would come through the "ladder" or rim joist and drop down and underground on the outside wall of the home. Bringing the conduit through below grade would not meet code here and could lead to water problems later on.
You could try to cut the concrete between the garage and dig down to the recommended depth. It will be deeper if you will use the space to park a car in or drive over it.
Another option is to make the garage the main panel then run power into the home which would become the sub panel. Depending on where and how the power comes on to your property, this could be an option.
How wide is this area that you need to cross to get into the garage?

[jyl]

Bill: "How wide is this area that you need to cross to get into the garage?" Four feet.

[cbush]

Unless you just feel the need to update your main panel- and depending on its age, their might be value in that, the affordable solution is to go with the sub panel. I have two sub panels in my house, and a good number more around our property. They are easy to install, and wire. Then use the electrician to inspect your work, and hook them up to the main box after you have run all the wire and such.

I would definately do overhead, and not cut the concrete!

[billybek]

Can you show a picture of the space you are crossing? Try to include the roof of the garage.
It may be easier to run up the house wall and cross over to a new "mast" to receive the wire for the garage.

[jyl]

I'm meeting a different electrician today, and will take and post a picture. Thanks!