if you are going to beat the crap out of something, it oughta be something cheap

:D -- and the best argument yet! (for a heep ...er, Jeep)

side note: funny that some think that a Cayenne doesn't have locking diff's.

oh, and again, how is a solid axle better off road? Does the dragging rear diff help? ..."articulation" ? ... are you suggesting that an OE Jeep has more suspension travel than a Cayenne?

Island, if you know how to drive, you won't drag the diff. And yes, solid axles ARE better off road than independent set ups. They articulate MUCH better. When you lift a tire due to lack of articulation, that's a whole lot less traction to pull you forward, or it places a ton of extra stress on axles. There's a reason the formula for a Jeep hasn't changed since they were made in the 40's. It just plain works off road. I have nothing against Cayennes but, a Wrangler Rubicon will eat it for lunch on a real trail. On road, the Jeep doesn't even stand a chance. But, I have a feeling nothing will ever convince you of that. You should find a local Jeep club, and ask to ride along on a trail run. A stock Rubicon will surprise you, I promise. It will go places that a Cayenne can't, or you aren't willing to go.

island911,
The cayenne (1st gen) is very capable, but on tough trails, the wrangler will destroy it. Suspension travel when off-road is not measured in the same way a street vehicle is. An inclined ramp is used.

When you lift your air suspension to full height the Cayenne does not articulate to allow the full wheel travel. For normal drivers on rough gravel roads, this is fine. But on actual trails, the Cayenne is not that great.
Four Wheeler: 2004 Four Wheeler of the Year

Durability.

No sissy rubber CV joint boots under there to get torn to shreds. Or sissy CV joints at all.
Drag a diff over rocks and it still functions as new.

Hard-core guys that build pick-ups for serious off-road duty toss the independant front suspension aside and stick solid axles under them. The only real advantage is durability, but durability is pretty valuable when miles from civilization.

I am a great fan of the Cayenne as a great handling general purpose SUV. I think it would be fine on light trails. I don't think a Cayenne would do well on rocky trails.

My Jeep is not even remotely stock, but a stock Jeep is a very capable off-road vehicle. The articulation and durability solid axles provides is preferable off-road.

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http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/m...Jeep/test1.jpg

I see what you and the article say, but one thing maybe missed is that the Cayenne air suspension readjusts itself --it doesn't simply pump-up all the 4 corners for more ground clearance. Instead, when any wheel is loaded light or heavy, the air suspension will adjust. It's not particularly fast in large adjustments, but it does constantly sense and adjust downward wheel pressure - even when parked. ..which people do find out when trying to change a tire w/o turning the suspension system off. (ignition off doesn't turn off the suspension)

That last point is a good one, but "sissy rubber CV joint boots"? ...really? rubber is now sissy? Ya know, now that I think of it, that Jeep I rented DID drive like it was rolling on some rather butch concrete tires.

If that was the case, I don't think they would have come to the conclusion they did - i.e. it doesn't have the articulation required.

I'd bet that on very rough roads, the Cayenne would be equal to the Wrangler, likely be able to go over many things faster and be smoother - in that case it is better. But when the trail gets really rough and ceases to be a maintained road, the Wrangler will win. It is designed for it. The Cayenne, can probably go 70% of where a stock Rubicon Wrangler can while maintaining excellent roads manners. That is amazing.

As to the CV's:
1. Tires are much stronger and thicker than any CV boot.
2. CV's are not as strong as a U-joint style articulating axle. Great strides have been made, but they do not have the strength and durability of a u-joint stye joint at high articulation angles. Compounding the problem is that an independent suspension CV joint is at an "angle" almost always. A solid axle's joint only articulates when the wheels are turned. Even then, they still have near full shear strength due to their pin design. There is a reason why drag racers will run solid axles once power levels get extremely high. And I'll immediately counter any notion that the wrangler power output is too low. When you run through a low-speed transfer case giving a drive ration of 70:1 or higher, axle torque becomes extreme.

I've owned about 7 of them starting in 97.

Currently own a 2012, well it's more of a demo(and for sale ;)) , but anyhow, the new engine is big big big improvement over the 3.8 lump from before. If you can, I would buy a new one.

Since 2007 they are very liveable as a daily driver, as long as you go with the hardtop, with the removable panels, I don't feel the need for a soft top anymore. Quite quiet on the highway, really good power now.



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Island911,
One thing I do want to say is that this is not a Cayenne bash. It IS a better all around vehicle than the Wrangler. That is without question.

I think what is also without question is that the Wrangler is the better slow speed off-roader. It is designed for it and almost only for it.

on rocks, that is

on beach or Sahara sand, or mud... likely not - on equal tires, I'll bet that the newest most sophisticated drive/traction system will win

One question or way to pose the question is whether the Cayenne can do the Rubicon Trail (?)

I'm also surprised that no one has brought up the G-wagens yet, or portal axles...

IFS/IRS is superior on road, no question. But off road it won't provide the suspension travel that a solid axle can. All the suspension tricks in the world can't help if one wheel is hanging in the breeze. The Cayenne isn't built for rock crawling, that doesn't make it an inferior SUV. But for those that really take their SUV hardcore off-roading, there are very few vehicles that can match a real Jeep.

Let's face facts, how many Cayenne owners buy one to beat the crap out of it on the Rubicon trail?

My Son's Jeep
 

I bought my son a 07 Wrangler X last September. I drove the jeep 2 - 3 weeks before taking it to him and fell in love with it. It's not a 911 but cool in a different way.

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Early off-road test of the Mercedes M-Class reported that it was pretty much immobilized in deep sand or mud.

Sand and mud require some wheel spin to churn through. Th M-Class's traction control reduced power further and further intil it sat there idling- Had to get towed out.

Granted, this was not Consumer Reports, but a hard core off roading magazine.

I'm sure Mercedes must have upgraded the electronics by now. But then again, I don't see any Mercedes where I take the Jeep.

Just as a Toyota Camry is a better all around car than a 911. :D

To the people bashing the Cayenne and its abilities, obviously you've never seeing one in action in a Whole Food's parking lot; that Pepper CAN handle!!!

Okay, and Let's face facts, how many Jeep owners buy one to beat the crap out of it on the Rubicon trail? ...as a percentage sold? .... and those who do buy Jeeps to beat the crap out of, on the Rubicon trail, how many don't modify the hell out of them?

All I'm saying is a stock Jeep doesn't eclipse the off-road capabilities of a Cayenne or even a Lexus. As Webb points to "...the newest most sophisticated drive/traction system ..." buys a lot.

The hard-core Jeep-ists look to split hairs and point to supposed weak spots, such as CV joints. Seriously? "durability is pretty valuable when miles from civilization. " PUh-LEASE.... Let's just say for a moment that all the CV boots get completely ripped off (not likely that even ONE would). . .and then the deep mud, and then the dry sand.. Does any one think that the vehicle will be stopped "miles from civilization." from torn CV boots? Let me remind people that ALL of these vehicles (Jeeps included) depend on civilization for a little consumable called GAS. ...and that even sand-packed CV's will keep pushing a wheel around for THOUSANDS of miles. So really, what kind of crazed, outback scenario is anyone imagining where it's "oh no, I won't be able to drive confidently 1000 miles into the jungle and back because if a CV boot tears I'll be stuck." ?

And to putting too much torque for a CV? .... CV's are sized for any give torque load. The Cayenne turbo can produce massive engine torque, which is then multiplied thru gear reduction. Does anyone think that the Porsche engineers don't know this? ...that only Jeep engineers have figured out "CV's can't be strong enough?" Funny, my VW Syncro van has both CV's, (axles) and U-joints (Drive shaft). Now at ~200k miles,the U-joints failed at ~100k, yet none of the CV's have failed (and one has had a torn boot for the last 60k) -- yeah, I'm living on the edge now. :rolleyes:

And then this idea that massive "articulation" is So important for getting thru stuff. Again, that is splitting a pretty fine hair. While "articulation" does help ride quality it's not a big player in traction. I mean, I -get- that in some peoples minds having more rubber in contact will give that much more grip. . . but of course they are wrong. Friction (grip) is by far a function of normal force (loading).

And then this thing about the hanging dif (on Jeeps). lm6y says "if you know how to drive, you won't drag the diff. "
Yeah, Someone here has a tag line that reads "a poor craftsman will blame his tools." And I have to agree with that. But it doesn't mean that some tools are better than others. In my experience, it SUCKS to have low hanging gear in the center of the vehicle, because when driving some sort of trail the majority of the trail will be rutted out. I don't care how tough the diff is, --dragging any part of the undercarriage is inefficient at best. At worst, it's high centering, and the grand "articulation" isn't going to help.

...which is why those who choose that 1940's 'tech' of a hanging diff, so often mod the crap out of the suspension so that they can fit giant tires.

Meh, as off-road gear goes, if you really want something to go deep into country get a bike, or a horse . . .or a helicopter, if you need to get there fast.

f course if your goal is "see that bolder over there? ...I'm not going to drive around it, I'll drive OVER it . . .with practice . . with a modified Jeep." Then have fun. :)

Hey, at least the Cayennes in the Whole Foods parking lot aren't sporting poser equipment that the Jeeps and Rovers in the Whole Foods parking lot have - you know such as "brush guards" --AKA "runaway shopping-cart guards"

Also nice is that Cayennes don't have stupid badges and/or decals proclaiming "off road" or "Trail Rated" -- what a bunch of pretentious crap. I mean do 911's have badges that say "Nürburgring rated." ...IOW, if a vehicle is All That it really doesn't need some stupid badge. ...well, other than to appeal to the idiots who want to project a certain image. Idiots like badges. Instant cred - deserved, or not.

The Jeep thing
 

OK --never thought I would say this but one either gets Jeeps or not so much

Have had a 2007 4dr since new -- my wife loves the covertible thing and it is nice in the warm weather. I have off roaded and soft roaded and it does fine.
My labs loved it

It is underpowered but the 07 is a far piece better than the early ones my boys owned.

So my advice is rent one --it will give you an idea of what life with one would be like.

Mine has been trouble free but the interior is sort of crappy -the 2012 is much better. the engine is only OK at best around town but weirdly way better off road. I like vehicles from dressed out Benzs to clapped out Scouts so go figure

Mflo