777 down

[oldE]

Originally Posted by afterburn 549

Last i knew the US Navy had sunken buoys with all sorts of tracking listening devises on them and that was 20 years ago. !

Actually,SOSUS was operational from the early '60s to the end of the Cold War and was concentrated on both US coasts as well as locations in the Pacific and North Atlantic which allowed the US (and Canadian) Navy to track the movements of Soviet submarines.

Portions of it remain, but most of the bases which monitored the SUSOS equipment were shut down twenty years ago. The technology was three decades old and had to be updated or scrapped.

Again, it comes down to how much money you want to spend on a capability when there is no perceived need for it.
This is the same situation with military radar in the Indian ocean. Nobody is expecting fleets of penguin bombers to attack from Antarctica, so there are few assets covering the expanse.
Now you may choose to believe that someone watched this flight from the time it took off to the time it touched down again, but if it was indeed outside of heavily trafficed areas, as the satellite signals indicated, there was nobody watching that big piece of sky.

Best
Les

[stuartj]

Originally Posted by javadog

I do have to wonder if it might have flown into one of the Australian radars that sweeps NW, off of the coast of Australia. From what I have seen of their coverage maps, it seems like the plane should have flown through their coverage from the radar based at Laverton.

JR

Im not sure that would be correct Java- the search area is 1000 miles NW of Perth- and Perth is 2000 miles west of Laverton. (Which AFAIK is decommissioned and a housing estate.) Is the military radar capable of that type of range?

[javadog]

Radar number 2, in this picture:



I've read that it was pointing away from the area that the plane is thought to have flown through, when it was passing by Australia, but that makes no sense to me.

JR

[stuartj]

Originally Posted by javadog

Radar number 2, in this picture:



I've read that it was pointing away from the area that the plane is thought to have flown through, when it was passing by Australia, but that makes no sense to me.

JR

Wow, big sweeps. Laverton Airbase though is/was in Melbourne, in the SE corner near the little map of Tasmania. Long way east. Used to fly U2s back in the day....

[javadog]

Laverton, WA... not Laverton AFB.

JR

[red-beard]

Stuart,

I am not an expert in this field, but know a little based on my radio knowledge.

The things that influence the distance detection are:

Type of Radar (CW, Pulsed, Pulsed Doppler, Frequency used, etc)
Altitude of the Aircraft
Altitude of the Radar Antenna

Radar has almost unlimited actual range. We regularly use Radar to map the orbit of Satellites. Radar was used in the 1960's by NASA to check the progress of the Moon Missions.

But, most radar is "line of sight". If it is below the horizon, you can't see it.

One of the types of RADAR,"HF", are capable of "Over the horizon" detection because they can reflect off the atmosphere. So even without a direct line of sight, you can still get an echo. It will not be as good as the short range stuff. But it will tell you that way out there are a bunch of planes coming and to be prepared.

One way to increase the range and reduce the effect of ground clutter is to use airborne radar systems. The horizon is extended much further for even short wavelength signal.



where d is in kilometres and h is height above ground level in metres.

or



With d in miles and h in feet

So, an Aircraft at 35,000 feet (10600M), the horizon is 211 miles (335 km). Planes generally fly above ground level, so the detection distance might be about to 250 miles.

The inverse works as well. A ground level radar would be able to spot an aircraft out ~200 miles (300 km). Beyond this, HF over the horizon radars would need to be used and they are nowhere near as accurate because the signal bounces between the ground and the atmosphere.

Now look at a satellite orbiting at 300 miles (475 km). You could detect an object 1535 miles (2435 km) away from the ground.

So, it all depends on how high the object you're trying to track, how high is your radar installation, and what type of radar used. Oh, and whether you're paying attention.

[stuartj]

Originally Posted by javadog

Laverton, WA... not Laverton AFB.

JR

Well you live and learn. Laverton WA is a mining town of a couple of hundred people seriously at the edge of the middle of no where. Im surprised to learn there is radar installation, or indeed anything of significance there.

Redbeard, very informative. you do sound like something of an expert...I was thinking about line of site/horizons...but commercial aircraft at high altitude ofcourse that makes perfect sense. To give some scale to Java's map tho....Radar 2 Laverton is 600 miles NE of Perth.

[javadog]

The radar unit at Laverton is part of the Jindalee Operational Radar Network, which is an over the horizon network that is said to be able to monitor air and sea traffic. From what I've read about it, it seems to be a pretty capable system.

JR

[cockerpunk]

so for all those "they are gonna nuke us with it" conspiracy nutcases .... wheres the nuke?

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by stuartj

Redbeard, very informative. you do sound like something of an expert...I was thinking about line of site/horizons...but commercial aircraft at high altitude ofcourse that makes perfect sense. To give some scale to Java's map tho....Radar 2 Laverton is 600 miles NE of Perth.

Not an expert. I've studied radio as a part of a radio hobby and some of it coincides. Just trying to help explain why we can't see the entire earth with radar. And radars are only pointed where a threat is likely. Unless there is a secret air base in Antarctica, we basically don't need to be worried about it.

[GWN7]

Originally Posted by oldE

Actually,SOSUS was operational from the early '60s to the end of the Cold War and was concentrated on both US coasts as well as locations in the Pacific and North Atlantic which allowed the US (and Canadian) Navy to track the movements of Soviet submarines.

Portions of it remain, but most of the bases which monitored the SUSOS equipment were shut down twenty years ago. The technology was three decades old and had to be updated or scrapped.

Again, it comes down to how much money you want to spend on a capability when there is no perceived need for it.
This is the same situation with military radar in the Indian ocean. Nobody is expecting fleets of penguin bombers to attack from Antarctica, so there are few assets covering the expanse.
Now you may choose to believe that someone watched this flight from the time it took off to the time it touched down again, but if it was indeed outside of heavily trafficed areas, as the satellite signals indicated, there was nobody watching that big piece of sky.

Best
Les

Funny but the little bit of reading I could find online says they automated the SOSUS systems and added to it. Systems in the Indian Ocean, Bay of Bengal and since the Gulf Wars I would suspect the Arabia Sea. It's a cheap easy way to track surface and sub-surface ships at a great range.

Lets say you have a military base on a little island in the middle of nowhere. On this island you have a runway big enough for a space shuttle to land on. Some SAC bombers and the Nukes to put on those planes. Fighter planes. Supply ships to transport Marines and all there gear to anywhere they might be needed. A submarine base. And just for fun we will add radar tracking capability powerful enough to see out into space. Wouldn't you put a ring of microphones around that island to let you know if anyone (even penguins) were heading towards you?

As to military radar, I'm pretty sure that since December 7th, 1941 all military radar is manned 24/7 just in case the penguins decide to march.

[GWN7]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

so for all those "they are gonna nuke us with it" conspiracy nutcases .... wheres the nuke?

"Up to 50 nuclear warheads are believed to have gone missing during the Cold War, and not all of them are in unpopulated areas"

A Nuclear Needle in a Haystack: The Cold War's Missing Atom Bombs - SPIEGEL ONLINE

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by oldE

A Nobody is expecting fleets of penguin bombers to attack from Antarctica

Until now...

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by GWN7

"Up to 50 nuclear warheads are believed to have gone missing during the Cold War, and not all of them are in unpopulated areas"

A Nuclear Needle in a Haystack: The Cold War's Missing Atom Bombs - SPIEGEL ONLINE

im well aware there are missing nuclear weapons.

what im wondering, its after being assured dozens of times by folks that the plane was landed safely and was being converted to carry a nuke for a terrorist attack.

so .... where is the attack?

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by GWN7

Funny but the little bit of reading I could find online says they automated the SOSUS systems and added to it. Systems in the Indian Ocean, Bay of Bengal and since the Gulf Wars I would suspect the Arabia Sea. It's a cheap easy way to track surface and sub-surface ships at a great range.

Not really.

SOSUS is/was a passive acoustic sensor: SOSUS is a listening device and subject to the same limitation all passive arrays are, the physics of sound propagation in water.

http://www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87/usw/issue_25/sosus.htm

Trust me I'm not trying to wear you guys out concerning ASW (which the passive phase of the search for the ping from the 777 really was), but I did it for many years as part of my job flying SH-60's.

I am, frankly, looking into the Penguin Bombers...

[afterburn 549]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

im well aware there are missing nuclear weapons.

what im wondering, its after being assured dozens of times by folks that the plane was landed safely and was being converted to carry a nuke for a terrorist attack.

so .... where is the attack?

When you least expect it , 6 months from now...

[trekkor]

Meanwhile, while TSA agents are searching peoples crotches, teenagers are stowing away on commercial flights...

Nothing to worry about

[fingpilot]

I have not checked in for several weeks. I said it on page 30-something, I'll say it again. It was the perfect crime of the century.

Is the Malaysian government embarrassed? Mission accomplished.

[trekkor]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

so for all those "they are gonna nuke us with it" conspiracy nutcases .... wheres the nuke?

It's posts like this that prove exactly what type of a person you really are.

Let's say that an attack comes of this, just for the sake of the argument.
You'll post:

"My bad... LOL", right?

I find you to be selfish and uncaring in your presentations.
It disgusts me.

[cockerpunk]

oh, good, just confirming the crazies are still crazy.