What we all knew about corn ethanol....

[dennis in se pa]

It was/is a scam.....

Sort of like driving electric cars that are actually powered by coal....

It's Final -- Corn Ethanol Is Of No Use - Forbes

How we try to fool ourselves to make us "feel better"

[GH85Carrera]

Now if common sense can just overpower the corn and farmers lobby and get the mandate repealed the world would be a better place. The corn lobby is VERY strong with deep pockets to buy votes in congress. When you see unicorns in Washington DC you will see the stupid ethanol law killed and real fair tax reform and simplification.

[stealthn]

I'd like to see the report on switch grass.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

Now if common sense can just overpower the corn and farmers lobby and get the mandate repealed the world would be a better place. The corn lobby is VERY strong with deep pockets to buy votes in congress. When you see unicorns in Washington DC you will see the stupid ethanol law killed and real fair tax reform and simplification.

This. Ethanol has been worthless in auto fuel since it was implemented. This is pandering to a very strong lobby group disguised as reducing dependence on foreign oil.

[Flieger]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

This. Ethanol has been worthless in auto fuel since it was implemented. This is pandering to a very strong lobby group disguised as reducing dependence on foreign oil.

Pure ethanol is atually a very good auto fuel. Ethanol and Methanol powered many GP cars in the era of the Silver Arrows. It is very high octane after all.

The problem is about where/how you obtain it. When you use conventional fermentation it uses about as much energy to produce as you get out.

The other problem is in blending it with something it isn't miscible with (gasoline) and using it in a fuel system not designed for it.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by Flieger

Pure ethanol is atually a very good auto fuel. Ethanol and Methanol powered many GP cars in the era of the Silver Arrows. It is very high octane after all.

True, but the benefits aren't realized by the average Joe driving a Camry. E85 is great for high compression or boost applications, but totally unsustainable to support our total fuel needs.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

This. Ethanol has been worthless in auto fuel since it was implemented. This is pandering to a very strong lobby group disguised as reducing dependence on foreign oil.

yup

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by dennis in se pa

It was/is a scam.....

Sort of like driving electric cars that are actually powered by coal....

It's Final -- Corn Ethanol Is Of No Use - Forbes

How we try to fool ourselves to make us "feel better"

But it makes people FEEL so good .......

There are lots O'folks in this world who EXPECT some miraculous technology to suddenly develop every time we focus on a challenge.
They've watched the personal computer evolve at exponential rates and for some reason think that's how all technology is.
it aint.


So they say lets support this ethonol thingy. it may not be practical for a few weeks, but by then some miracle techology will be discovered and rainbows will shoot out of unicorn's butts.
Same with electric cars and solar and wind energy etc.
Their fantasy world is much more attractive and pleasant than our reality is, so guess which one they choose to live in?


disclaimer: I own shares of at least two companies that make ethanol and that profit from gubmint intervention. I still think it's wrong tho.

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by Flieger

Pure ethanol is atually a very good auto fuel. Ethanol and Methanol powered many GP cars in the era of the Silver Arrows. It is very high octane after all.

.

No it is not. It's a very inneficient motor fuel. It has a relatively low BTU count so the energy you get out of a gallon of ethanol is significantly less than that of a gallon of gasoline.
The only reason it is used in racing enginers is that it allows them to run a very high compression ratio which results in higher torque and HP numbers, along with much higher gallons burned per mile.
When efficiency and economy don't matter, ethanol can make more total power per displacement.

But efficiency and economy DO matter.
They matter a great deal. That's why ethanol is a sheety fuel for normal use and gasoline/diesel are so much better.

Gasoline stoiciometric is 14.7 to 1.
That means it take 14.7 pounds of air for every pound of gasoline to reach a lambda of 1 (ideal air/fuel mixture to burn cleanly and efficiently).

Now lets compare that to ethanol, shall we?

Lets pick a mixture, say E85. We're all familiar with that stuff, right?

Stoiciometric for E85 is 9.765 (lambda of 1).

That means it takes 36% MORE E85 than gasoline for the same displacement engine and RPM to stay at an idea A/F ratio.
FUELS DATA

So they start cheating and leaning it out. Hey, it won't hurt an engine to run lean, will it?

They program those "flex fuel engines" to run lean and lessen the loss of MPG, but leaning it out further reduces power being made whch requires more throttle which further reduces MPG.

For the life of me, I cannot think of many organizations OTHER THAN THE GUBMINT that would be capable of coming up with any idea/program/concept that makes less sense (tree huggers cough cough)

[onlycafe]

the only part of feeling good about corn ethanol is when i am sipping bourbon.

[cockerpunk]

grouping other technologies into ethanol to paint the whole thing as bunk is ridiculous.

for example, the OP compares electric cars run from coal, as a bad alternative to ICE. it however, is a much improved system from an efficiency and a environmental standpoint.

sammy: high compression ratio means high efficiency in piston engines.

E85 makes a great race fuel, esp in turbo cars. it is however a bad fuel for transportation systems.

[slakjaw]

In Minnesota they mandated the feel good feeling. All fuel here is 10% and will be going to 15% so we get to feel even better.

[Jim Richards]

I feel better eating corn on the cob.

[Tilikum Turbo]

Originally Posted by dennis in se pa

It was/is a scam.....

Sort of like driving electric cars that are actually powered by coal....

It's Final -- Corn Ethanol Is Of No Use - Forbes

How we try to fool ourselves to make us "feel better"

What we have is the local/state/federal politicians whom have no fundamental understanding of science...making decisions which cater to the masses(which also are as dumb as a box of rocks). Most people on the street think those electrons coming from that socket are sourced from leprechauns on a tread-mill.

This plan worked REAL well for the refiners of gasoline which give us 10 gallons of shyte for every 100 gallons sold, and for the farmers selling food as gasoline.

We get less MPG...and much more expensive food, all on the ruse we are "saving the planet"(rolls eyes)

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by Tilikum Turbo

What we have is the local/state/federal politicians whom have no fundamental understanding of science...making decisions which cater to the masses(which also are as dumb as a box of rocks). Most people on the street think those electrons coming from that socket are sourced from leprechauns on a tread-mill.

This plan worked REAL well for the refiners of gasoline which give us 10 gallons of shyte for every 100 gallons sold, and for the farmers selling food as gasoline.

We get less MPG...and much more expensive food, all on the ruse we are "saving the planet"(rolls eyes)

Ethanol HURT the refiners big time. it REPLACED up to 10% of their product with someone else's product. It drove down demand and profits of gasoline, while driving up the price at the pump.
They didn't make ethanol, they had to BUY ethanol from someone else and mix it with their gas, diluting it and reducing profits. In most cases the ethanol they were forced to buy cost more than yhe wholesale price of their gasoline so that hurt their profitability even more.

A couple refining companies decided to try to cut their loses and they bought up ethanol producing companies. They broke even at best even with the subsidies.
Then the gubmint took away most of the subsidies so they lost money on those companies.

The ONLY people who did well are the farmers who crop tripled in price due to nothing but artificial manipulation from the gubmint.

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by slakjaw

In Minnesota they mandated the feel good feeling. All fuel here is 10% and will be going to 15% so we get to feel even better.

That will destroy a lot of cars. I hope some car owners can sue for damages.