Its a made up deal so religion can have power over its people. Provides the 3 C's which is the basis of humans governed, then it just turns into a pizz'n match over whose God is greater, whose heaven is better...then you get those that think that through sacrifice and deeds to promote their God they garner a better seat in heaven...its a load of crap designed to promote power and control.

I arrested for about 30 seconds during a gall bladder surgery. Vasovagal response from the pressure caused by inflating my abdomen for the procedure.
No white light, no virgins....
Scared the snot out of my wife when the doc took an hour to show up after the surgery to give her the de-brief. He was probably on the phone to his lawyer and insurance broker...I knew something was up when I woke up back in the pre-op ward all plugged into monitors rather than the recovery room.
-C

Yes, and there IS life after death, for SOME of us.

Yes. Thanks.

If I follow you correctly, you see the anesthetic as causal.

The cardiologist I saw immediately after my "death" seemed pretty sure it was the epinephrine included with the lidocaine that that caused the Bradycardia (very rapid uncontrolled heart rate) that caused the heart to stop, not the anesthetic in the lidocaine.

I've been told by doctors that epinephrine is often given to people to revive them after heart stoppage. Of course, not directly into a vein.

Bradycardia is not a rapid heart beat, it is a slow heart rate. Tachycardia is the rapid HR.

If you experienced marked bardycardia (heart rate <<60/minute) it was an accidental intra-vascular injection of local anesthetic--or possibly a situation called a vaso-vagal episode.

If you experienced marked tachycardia (heart rate >>100/minute) it was likely caused by an accidental intra-vascular injection of epinephrine making your heart race faster and/or contract more irregularly than your body's compensation mechanisms could accommodate.

You seem to be writing bradycardia but describing tachycardia.

Lots of people have a heart rate <60 or >100 every day or at times during the day/week/month... . Heart rate by itself (within reason) does not denote the entire story. Heart rates of <35ish or >200ish in average adults may be the entire problem but are rare and perfusion of tissues remains key.

Epinephrine is made and circulated by everyone every day. A blast of it from you (fright...) or a syringe (accidentally or intentionally into a vein) can not only make your heart rate go up (or really up) but also make a heart irritable and prone to irregular beating. Irregular or really rapid heart contractions do not push blood out of the heart effectively. The resulting lack of output degrades perfusion resulting in tissues and cells failing to get the oxygen and nutrients needed to carry on their metabolism normally. If the under-perfused tissue/cells are in your brain, you become can become distressed, confused, "light headed" or experience loss of consciousness.

So, imo it could have been either or both. It doesn't seem like you were told you had a seizure...however in a panicked dental office it may have been missed. It would also be really rare to have a dental dose of local kick off a seizure so I think your cardiologist was on the right trail.

Academically, the 15 second flat-line the paramedic described could have been induced by a defibrillation/cardioversion (shock) or a possibly a medication called adenosine which is well known to produce a few seconds of flat-line.

Lastly, not long ago lidocaine was routinely administered via bolus and/or infusion as treatment for irritable heart rhythms. It worked by "dulling" the nervous system in the heart but would occasionally result in a heart rate that was too slow.

That's probably more than you wanted to know so I'll cut it off there. Glad you're ok and it would be interesting to see your rhythm strips for this event.

Right there with you.

In my personal experience, those who believe in an "afterlife" are less mentally able or purposefully unwilling to grapple with reality of infinite rest. This is by no means to be intentionally or unintentionally hurtful to anyone on the board here but I've had many trials and tribulations with family who are incredibly short sighted and "hopeful"...we don't see eye to eye as they usually use their beliefs as reasons to not make the right choice every time in the here and now.

Read through some of the "last words" uttered by death row inmates prior to execution. Granted some are just hard arsed folks who don't care, but the majority make some sort of reference to God, being sorry and coming to a better place.

These are some of the worst people, using the idea of another chance/afterlife as a away to make themselves comfortable with facing their eminent death.

You are probably correct. This was more than 20 years ago and we all know how tricky memory can be.

I was light headed the first go around. The second, and recorded blackout, was just instant black.

No one mentioned seizure to me.

Always interested in learning so, no, not more than I want to know. I am guessing you are an M.D. Regardless, thanks for the input.

I'll try to find the printout and scan the relevant part of it. If I succeed, I'll post it. My, perhaps shaky, memory is the line was somewhat erratic, then very fast and erratic, then flat line.

And, yes, I feel very lucky to be alive.

Interesting. I've had great friends and family pass away like everybody else has. I find comfort knowing they have transcended their corporeal lives into some someplace better after having lived honorable, helpful and caring lives.

I try to live my life like they had. Perhaps in hope that I may meet them again on the other side. If that's a stooped delusional kind of thinking, then call me a crazy moron.

Thank you. Very well put.

While I'm not a "believer" myself, this world is a nasty effed up place. If people want to bring just a little bit of peace and comfort to themselves, by believing in a "higher power", afterlife, or whatever it may be, WTF is the problem?? Why does that have to offend you?? Does it really have the slightest effect on your lives?? Does it make you feel more intelligent and elitist by bashing and insulting them??

I have to say, the whole "Atheist" movement has quickly become my most hated group of people.


.

Not sure anyone would (could) care about people's supernatural beliefs. The trouble starts when people attempt to cram their beliefs or lack of belief down someone else's throat...or cite their supernatural belief or lack of belief as the reason they did or are doing xyz.

YMMV.

So you have a problem with people trying to live honorable, caring and helpful lives because they think there may be a possibility of a reward for it?

If so, what exactly is the problem?

Ever been dead?
 

Naw....but I've got BIG plans and working on it daily :p

Like this.

Had my heart stopped twice in ER on purpose trying to flip me out of afib.

I wasn't told what was happening till after (probably a good thing) and it was a very short duration but the sensations were fading vision..maybe tunnel...and very definite sinking into the table feeling. couldn't talk but wanted to tell the doc I didn't care for the sensation at the time.

it has, actually, helped alleviate fear of death for me. it won't be so bad when it happens. of course I'd like to delay the event for as long as possible to watch my kids grow up.

wherever..whatever..
some of you choose to believe or not..
for me...
my dogs had better be there..
otherwise I'm going to be one PO dead person...

Rika

I will also mention the sensation was not quite the same as getting the knockout juice before a procedure. That (knockout juice) was just downright nice and had none of the sinking feeling which I presume is really the lack of oxygen intake (aka breathing).

Yeah. Like that. Quit running away and help me understand how or why my philosophy is a problem for you?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/suppo...s/beerchug.gif

.

So getting the juice for surgery doesn't seem to be unpleasant for most people. This brings to me a question. Apparently there is a big controversy over lethal injections being cruel and unusual punishment. Not to confuse the appropriateness of death sentences, I'm asking about the method.

Is the controversy over the kinds of chemicals used? Is it reasonable that some lethal injections are cruel?

What's being discussed hereis "clinical death".
True death, " biological death ", ain't no coming back from!

We're perfectly capable of doing lethal injection humanely. We do it with animals (veterinary euthanasia) all the time. The only issue that is of concern is that the agent typically used (phenobarbital) can create a "burning" sensation before it takes hold and renders the recipient unconscious and before it stops the heart. A lot of vets use a mild sedative first to help alleviate this and / or mix the phenobarbital with xylocaine / lidocaine or a similar drug to help things go easier and make it less unpleasant for both the animal and the owner.

Most of the frenzy about "inhumane" lethal injections are blown way out of proportion by grandstanding lawyers being paid to do so. The facts (when you research it a bit) are that we have the capability to euthanize people or animals humanely, painlessly and with an almost 100% guaranteed success rate - until the legal system gets hold of it and makes a clusterfk out of it. Medically it's a pretty straightforward and simple procedure.

I've been told that execution by firing squad is actually relatively painless if done correctly. The BP crashes and the person goes almost instantly unconscious before bleeding out afterwards. It's messy though (obviously). Same with the guillotine - actually invented to provide a painless, dignified method of execution for French aristocrats.

Given how brutal most convicted killers on death row are and how merciless they were to their victims, I'm not too terribly concerned myself with a brief instant of momentary discomfort during execution. Sad that we make such a big deal about it (thanks once again to lawyers convoluting the entire thing)

Your philosophy isn't the issue. It's your needing to throw it onto others.

Well,

I have no need to throw my philosophy onto anyone else and never have, pav. You pointed out by direct reference to my post that it was somehow an example of me throwing my philosophy onto somebody else. Your interpretation of that post as proselytizing is a stretch. And, I might add, your derision for my belief, which approaches condescension, implies an insecurity with whatever belief you may hold. The solution to whatever problem you may have with my belief is something you need to resolve for yourself.

In the meantime, whilst you struggle with you own beliefs, I remain comfortable with mine. Good luck to you, sir. I hope you find peace.

I saw the dead in the 90's...does that count? ;)

Great. Be comfortable. But don't try picking a fight because someone may not agree with you. This is the road to fanaticism and has given the world a lot of ****.

Failing to consider other possibilities isn't a conversation. It's an argument. I get enough of that at work so this is as far as I'm willing to go with you on your belief.

Not dead but I did have the fading away feeling, the dying feeling. The day after my spinal surgery in '94 the nurse got me to sit up. I threw 5 blood clots to my lungs. I turned blue/gray, terrific chest pain and a feeling of leaving life. Tunnel vision, cold, clammy, overwhelming sick feeling, etc. Then the feeling of shutting off came over me, an uncontrolable slipping away feeling, know I was dying. Then the crash team came in and shot me full of Heparin and Ativan and things got better, the "shock" went away. Getting O2 sure beats not getting O2 into your body. I believe that when the end comes, it comes. Not a damn thing you can do. Part of me thinks that you shut off, like when you are under anesthesia, nothing, really nothing. But we will never know until we get to that place. Maybe we regenerate and regain awareness in another form, or maybe not, we just seize to exist, we are erased from the universe.

I think you took this to DEFCOM 5 for no apparent reason. Maybe god is talking to your conscience.

I was reflecting on this thread as I was mowing the grass, I get lots of thinking done while mowing. It occurred to me that it is possible that the blackness and non threatening feeling was actually heaven. The relief of worldly suffering.

Another view could be is that the blackness was hell and you will not be receiving the 72 virgins in heaven as promised and only got stuck in the darkness.

Either way the experience that you had as it relates to god existance is as reliable as the Soviet astronauts who proclaimed god did not exist because they could not see him as they approached outer space.

Food for thought.

Before anyone starts accusing me of proselytizing, nothing could be further from the intent of my post.

Agnostic.

We are never erased. We are recycled. The atoms that make us have been present in the universe from the beginning of time and our atoms will be there till the end of time, just in another form.

Ahh, as Carl Sagen said, " we are all stardust". Yes, I agree. I guess I should have said, perhaps our consciousness is erased from the universe.

OBEs (out-of-body experiences) are an interesting phenomenon. They are quite common among meditation practitioners. I've had a couple of OBEs while meditating. In my experiences, I'll be meditating like normal, sitting on the couch and looking at a candle's flame, when suddenly I'm above my body... up by the ceiling, looking down at myself. I look around to see if I'm in a "spirit body" but I'm not. I have no body; I'm just a pinpoint of consciousness, and I have all of my personality and etc within that pinpoint of consciousness. There is no "silver thread" connecting me to my body, which is still sitting on the couch. So I figure this is the astral plane, right? and I go exploring by wishing to go down the hallway, and that's what happens, I go down the hallway. Then I decide that I want to be back in my body, and instantly I'm back in my body, looking at the candle, and the OBE is over.

So my consciousness didn't *need* my body. I think when we die, we survive without our bodies, and continue to be individuals somewhere else.

_

CB effectively demanded that I "stop running away". I stated my stance and don't see DEFCOM 5 in there.

PARF is the place for arguments and posturing. I stay out of there for the most part and for good reason.