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Usually we don’t choose our dogs. Either the neighbor dog has puppies and we get stuck with one. Or something wanders on to our property without tags. This a been a good system so far. But have never wound up with a pit bull. Don’t know what I’d do then. People wh o have to have a pit sort of remind of the guys who have to have the model of gun used in the last big shooting. |
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Attacks on people by dangerous dogs - in some cases with fatal results - have made legislation to combat dangerous dogs necessary. As a result the (Hundeverbringungs- und -einfuhrbeschränkungsgesetz) came into force in 2001. Its provisions include a ban on the import and/or transfer of dogs that are classified as dangerous. The Customs administration is involved in monitoring the import of these breeds of dog. The Dog Transfer and Import Restrictions Act prohibits the import or transfer into Germany of certain breeds of dog and crossbreeding of these dogs with one another, or with other breeds. It refers to these breeds of dog: Pit Bull Terrier American Staffordshire Terrier Staffordshire Bull Terrier Bull Terrier |
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All the dogs I have ever had have been rescues, never picked one out or purchased one in my life. I have been exposed to hundreds, if not over a thousand PB mixes, and have yet to see one that scared me or acted aggressive in my presence. My experience is not going to change anyone's mind, any more than Jeff is going to change mine.
Carry on with your trolling Jeff. Make no mistake, that is precisely what you are doing. I won't be rising to the bait ever again though, what possible good could ever come of it. |
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So, yes, by all means - stay out of this. You offer nothing of value. You have proven to be remarkably impervious to the facts surrounding the dangers of this breed. As a matter of fact, your irrational, emotionally driven nonsense could very well lead to some poor innocent trusting this breed and getting hurt, or worse, because they listened to you. I would hate to see that happen. |
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She's one of them tatted up, lowlife thuggish gang bangers we always read about. |
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My friends' saga began when an adorable little 8 week old PB was rescued and brought into their pack of three.... No one is gonna change their minds, I've loved every single one I've been around. Too many other great dawgs with minimal risks out there....just in case.... |
I would urge anyone who does not fully understand and possess proper knowledge of what it takes to be owned by man's best friend - to simply forgo acquisition of a dog.
Period. Regardless of breed. These are not objects to collect and own. They are living beings with needs. Dumb chit humans need not apply. https://jaagrutiindia.files.wordpres...-dog.jpg?w=604 |
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You ignore the evidence from interview clips of people that study dog behavior and psychology for a living, some of which has been posted in this thread. You chide others for attacking the messenger, when you do the same thing. The best advice you could offer, is for people to simply not own a dog. |
Baz,
Not to be disrespectful or anything but we're talking about an animal. Animals have no rights. They are collected and owned by humans, who do have rights. |
All breeds of dogs can bite. All breeds of dogs are capable of attacking people.
I'm pretty sure everyone can agree with that. When different breeds of dogs attack, the results vary greatly. A small toy breed like Pekingese or shih tzu can bite, and can break the skin. But that's pretty much the extent of it in all but the most extreme cases. A pit bull terrier was designed and bred to combine and maximize strength, aggressiveness, viciousness, and the ability to keep fighting and attacking until it kills. Those are the traits needed for fighting dogs. Just like greyhounds were bred to run fast. Those are facts and no knowledgeable person would dispute them. Pit bulls at their core are gentle loving dogs, just like all other domesticated breeds. But in there somewhere is still that capability, that tendency to fight and kill. A golden retriever is bred to have a "soft mouth". IOW is is designed not to bite down hard so it doesn't destroy the bird it retrieves. It can bit down hard, but usually does not. It is "not in it's nature". A golden might bite but will not rip your face off and sever your spine and rip your throat out. Pit bulls can do those very things and do those things on occasion. They may not be more likely to attack than other breeds, but when they do attack the results are exponentially worse. Other breeds considered more dangerous than others include rottweilers, german Shepherds, dobermans, akitas, and chow chows. Take away the emotional knee-jerking and look at it rationally and logically and those are the conclusions that we land on. Quote:
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I may be totally wrong, but I can't imagine those two dogs just standing there, allowing their master to be hurt/attacked, without their intervention. And as such, they would have wounds, too...
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It is not surprising you would single out the legality of the concept at issue here, which is indisputable, in an effort to disparage the fact that no animal could ever be held accountable for taking the life of another animal. Worse, the implication that an animal can somehow be justified for doing so smacks at pathological anthropomorphism. Without going into too much detail about difficult subjects such as morals, ethics or even self-loathing, concepts no animal (nor even some humans) can comprehend, no animal, however 'loyal' it appears to be, has a right to life or liberty. |
Your reply indicates that you missed my point entirely. If you ever figure it out, I would be happy to discuss it.
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Were I to have ever figured it out, why would there be a need to discuss?
Animals do not have rights. If you care to discuss this point, I'm all ears. |
Ponder how a human views a relationship with the dog. Then ponder how the dog views the same relationship. Then consider how that difference impacts the relationship between the two.
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I have, java.
You appear, on more than one occasion, to have intimated that I am unworthy of owning a dog simply by virtue of my statement of fact that animals do not have rights. I am willing to discuss it further but that may not be possible as I cannot tell if you agree or disagree with that statement of fact. One of the more difficult things I've ever had to do in my life was to put down a dog for reasons completely relavent to this discussion. If it was the wrong thing to do, which you appear to believe, I'd like to hear your argument. Otherwise, the best I can hope for is a retraction of your assessment of my capacity for the responsibility inherent in the ownership of a dog. |
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No worries but was there something in my post (#49) you disagreed with that caused you to post this? If so, would appreciate knowing that. I don't believe I said anything about "rights". That speaks more to laws that are 'on the books' than where I was going. I would also like to know what your dog has to say about all this....:p |
To simplify it: dogs are not capable of understanding our frame of reference. To have a successful relationship with the dog, you have to learn to view it as the dog does. When we think of applying our moral and ethical standards to the relationship, we have already failed. The point I have made, time and again, is that most failures in a relationship between a human and dog originate with the human. It's why I think that most people should not "own" dogs and largely why we continue to have problems with them. Most people have no problems, in spite of themselves, as the dog is fully focused on trying to make the relationship successful. Sadly, I would say that most of the incidents involving a dog would not occur with a more knowledgeable human involved. I have no idea what happened in this particular case, I suspect the investigation is ongoing, if it is not a foregone conclusion. I can tell you that the above photograph of the woman with the dog does not show a happy dog. I also don't know if it is one of the dogs involved, as they were described as being between 100 and 125 pounds, and that dog is nowhere near that.
Of course, that also involves the media, which probably gets at least half of every story wrong. |
Baz,
Animals do not have rights, such as ownership. Nothing more than that. I don't own a dog. |
So, does that mean that when you are done playing with your dog, cat, parakeet that you just toss it in the trash can dead or alive because you are tired of it just like any other inanimate object?
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Yes, flipper.
In addition, I go around stomping puppies and tying cement blocks around kitties' necks and throw them in the river. Sheesh. What is with you guys? Tell me who gets sued when a croc eats a duck? Tell me who goes to jail when a eagle eats a fish? I am not gonna allow you guys to make even bigger fools of yourselves by my participating in this ridiculous argument. Humans, alone, have responsibilities. Among them are the humane treatment of animals. Animals do not have rights. |
Crowbob, it's a strange arguement to me for sure that you're taking, because you imply that nothing has a right unless Humans allow it to have one?? You're speaking from a legal perspective only? (nothing to do with the pitbulls at this stage of course).
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....and it's vicious when they do, btdt too many times :( |
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It is great if Humans can learn to interact with dogs and that many poor interactions could be avoided. However, from a statistical basis, some dogs seem to be bred to do ''the right thing'' regarding human interactions, and some have a proclivity toward violent interactions that can lead to death. This isn't a gun that relies on the owner to do the shooting, this is a living carnivore. Saying that it is a joggers fault that someone's dog made them a cripple for life seems to support the argument that there are no bad dogs. However, statistically, there are breeds that are lethal, and breeds that simply are not, and don't ''want'' to be. I don't think you can say that any particular dog is immune to having a reaction that is apparently natural to a given breed just because it has been owned or trained by a knowledgeable handler. Again, statistics. Everyone thinks they apply to someone else and that they are the exception. I personally think that many people get off on having a lethal dog, and that some people just think that certain dogs are cool, like Spuds McKenzie. Clearly from this conversation, there are a lot of people who believe that they are immune to statistics, special, or that ''it can't happen here''. Because well, you know, words... I expect most owners who have been mauled or had dogs that mauled others thought the same thing. Stuff happens. Do you think we can always reliably predict trigger actions or instances in every case ? I'm thinking not. Again, statistics. Go ahead and play the odds. Just realize that they exist. |
FWIW, I am always aware of other people's dogs in my space. I am mentally prepared to fight and kill a dog, if I have to. I doubt I could fight off three.
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Rights, the concept, is a human construct. Do trees have rights, do stones have rights, does water have rights? Animals do not have rights. It's very simple. Do animals deserve humane treatment? In my opinion they do. But I'm strange that way. Some people don't believe that. If animals had rights all carnivors would be criminals. Some people believe they are. I don't. These same people who believe carnivores are criminals have no problem with eating blueberries. Is that because they've decided blueberries have no rights? If so, they're hypocrites. So I'm in my shower and there's this big bug. I did not read that bug its Miranda rights. It never occurred to me that I was violating that bug's rights, civil or otherwise, before I squished it. So far, I have not heard from the ABLU, the bug cops or anybody. Would I squish a dog under similar circumstances? Damn right! Since I don't have a dog, if one appeared in my shower uninvited I'm not going to call my lawyer, or his lawyer. A big tree branch falls on my garage. My next step is to sue the tree? |
You have to be careful with statistics. They're good at showing what happens, but very seldom good at showing why. I tend to look at what the researchers have to say, as they study the problem more deeply than those that simply compile numbers.
In every one of these threads, there are typically links to things that refute the information that is always discussed in these threads. You always hear someone say that these dogs will "snap" unpredictably, won't quit when fighting, and have the deadliest bite in the dog world, etc. Experts would tell you otherwise but, if I've learned one thing here, it's that people generally are not open to changing their minds and usually some of the loudest voices are from those that have little or no experience with the breed. So be it. |
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You can apply that same amount of thought and foresight to owning a dog. |
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The police and medical examiners are all wrong. She died from blunt force trauma by a murderer and not the nice gentle dogs. Isn't this typical of every pit bull attack, it was such a gentle dog, it would never do something like this. |
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OK....I'm out.... |
Have been around probably six or eight dogfights in my life, maybe half of those involved a pitbull. None of the fights was especially noteworthy, one way or the other, And I think I've learned enough at this point in my life that future fights are probably not very likely to happen.
The one point I made about Crowbob was that the way he viewed dogs probably would be detrimental to him establishing the same sort of healthy relationship with the dog as someone that viewed dogs in a different light. Dog owners need to meet the dog more than halfway in the relationship, as humans can be taught to think like dogs, but dogs cannot be taught to think like humans. I don't recall disagreeing with Baz on anything, I think he's one of the people in these threads that has an open mind and is supportive of rational dog ownership. |
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All of us (and many others on this thread) are true dawg people, with no lack of sense....we've just had different experiences with PBs...first hand...many times. I used to think like you, Baz, and Toby do. The "bad wiring" in SOME PBs has been genetically engineered for them to fight...it is what it is at this point... a crap shoot :(. Do you think it's noteworthy when a neighbor called 911 on a fight my buddy's wife was involved with...no, she's not a dog whisperer, but they've always had 'em. Paramedics were called for her. She was lucky... MY dogfight experiences have been just as epic....my last one in particular. Every damn one was that original PB against her offspring or between them....breeding does that...it is what it is. I "thought" I could control them....always have, no issues....then I couldn't one time :(. We're all passionate and love dogs....I'm out...well, until the next thread :) |
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The tree nor the dog has rights. As far as your opinion regarding my view of dogs and any detriment it may have on the establishment of whatever you think a proprer relationship I may have with one is arrogant, insulting and predicated on ignorance. It's not the first time you've expressed it, either. My guess, based totally on this these exchanges, is that you seem to enjoy some kind of moral and intellectual superiority which in turn gives you authority over my ownership of a dog. Well sir, let me inform you that you do not. In light of that, my expectation of an apology has diminshed to nothing. |
I still don't think you understand the point I was trying to make. I'm not suggesting that I am morally or ethically superior to you. I am suggesting that if you think that, with respect to a dog, then you're not likely to have a relationship with a dog that is as successful as it could be. It's nothing more than that, and it's not personally directed at you. It's just an observation, based on what I've learned about dogs and what I've learned about people that don't understand as much about how a dog thinks.
I never set out to own a pitbull. One got dumped in my lap, so to speak, and I have done my best to give it a good life. It was the catalyst for me to take my understanding of dogs to a deeper level, and that has made me a better person and a better dog owner. |
More info regarding the incident that sparked this thread:
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Well....the problem with how to handle things going forward clearly lies with the human - not the dog.
In fact, an argument could be made, it's the human's fault in the first place. Why am I "picking on" the human and not the dog? It's the same argument as why a gun is not to blame for a homicide. Someone has to pull that trigger. In the case of a dog - someone has to be stupid enough to not understand the big picture and be responsible in their action(s). Case in point.....what breed ranks #1 in shelters? You got it: These Are The 10 Most Common Dog Breeds Found In Shelters 1. American Pit Bull Terrier Total Number Available for Adoption: 5,435 Quote:
But check out this comment someone left on the article: ==== "Pit bulls" are the most commonly found breed in shelters due to socio/economic reasons. 1.Why they are bred. Backyard breeders in low income neighborhoods breed the dogs for money. The dogs typically live outdoors without proper food, water, shelter, vet care or human interaction. The expenses are minimal and a litter of 6+ puppies, born 2-3 times a year can sell for as much as the buyer will pay, anywhere from $50-$1000+ each. The puppies are separated from the mother and litter mates too early, denying them of the mother's milk, which passes on critical antibodies to strengthen their immune system. Separation from their litter mates denies them of proper dog socialization and many grow up to be dog aggressive. Because the mother lives outdoors and is not given adequate vet care, she passes on parasites and other virusus that can be deadly. 2. Why they are purchased People buy these pups 1) for further breeding/money - and the cycle continues 2) for security. Dogs act as an alarm system to warn of strangers approaching (robbers, drug dealers, police, parole officers etc.) 3) their inherent "macho" status. 4} they are cute 3. Why they end up in shelters The pups are adorable but they quickly grow into 60+lb adult dogs. If not properly cared for, including training, they can be too difficult to handle. Many owners rent and if they have to move, they cannot take the dog with them.The young men who often purchase these dogs may be incarcerated and now the dog is homeless. But the dogs are expendible. All an owner has to do is "let it go". Animal control will pick it up and it will be taken to a municipal shelter. And that is exactly what happens. This is why the pit bull is the most common breed found in shelters. ========================= So what we have here are irresponsible humans. That is squarely where the fault lies and that is where as a society we need to focus our attention, IMHO. Complaining about how vicious the breed is doesn't do anything except fuel the debate and waste a lot of time..... |
The problem lies with the dog because humans bred them the way it was.
I'm sorry, but I actively avoid PBs when I'm out with my dogs. They're the only breed I know that has attacked other dogs / people walking down the street unprovoked. |
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