Asking for Advise. I'm rebuilding a 3.2. Should I do 3.4/5 twin plug, etc.
 

I am in process to find a place to fix my engine, transmission, and clutch. I would like to get advise from two perspective, the best option to buy the parts and the advise on the Engine.

I don't have the tools, the knowledge and the time to do it. Therefore I am going to take my car a local shop here in Dallas.

From the perspective of buying the parts, I was thinking on creating a list for the full project (clutch, pistons, seals, hoses, etc) and get quotes from 2-3 places. I don't think there is another way to get a better price.

The main question is on the Engine, I am not sure if I should go stock or it is the time to do few upgrades.

- after reading several threads, I got the idea that the best performance upgrade -I will get it in the headers and muffler.

- Other guys are also suggesting to get 964 cams and upgrade to 3.4 or 3.5 (I will not bore the case)

- And finally some gurus are talking about twin plugs. (here is where I have read a lot, people talking about Andian, using two 964 coils, and big thread talking about using a 993 single unit with inverter).

- I am looking a reliable car for the street (no track).
- I think that if I am going to buy cylinders and piston, go the path for 3.4 and upgrade the cams using 964's.
-Twin plug.- it will allow to have a higher compression, but I think is very expensive and it doesn't give me a lot of HP. and it affects the reliability of the car.
-At some point I was thinking on e85. If I am replacing the fuel lines, fuel pump and injectors - take the effort on switching it into e85. This is not even into consideration any more, I read that there is no significant gain of power (4%) and it is more complicate when the car is idle.
- Something that I think will consider is upgrading the oil pump for a 964.
- Valve guides and ARP struts.
- Should I balance the clutch and crankshaft?
- Any suggestions on the upgrades are welcome.

Thanks

What is your budget?

Get that clear and the rest is easy.

I could not agree more, your budget will dictate.

I will be balancing everything
ARP studs
ARP rod bolts
increase my bore somehow (budget will dictate)
964 oil pump
996 cams


David

I know my engine is different but the logic might be the same

My cylinders were good.
New pistons are not all that expensive compared to some other bits, so
on my 3.0 I went higher compression and twin plug.

I initially wanted to go bigger, but that meant cylinders, which in my case upped the price by just too much.

plus, I could see the coolness of a twin pug setup.
I wouldn't be able to see the parts used for bigger bore ;-)

I would talk to the shop you plan to have build your engine and see if they are ok with you providing the replacement parts. Most shops are not but if they are, won't generally provide a warranty.

^this! Also, strongly recommend finding/working with a shop that has experience with 911 engine rebuilds and 3.4/3.5l conversions -- let the shop leverage its experience/knowhow and (at a minimum), see what it would recommend parts/specs-wise as your first step here.

Good morning Guys, Mepstein and Darrin - yes, definitely I will review with the shop. But at least you need to have an idea of what are you asking.

If you are going to fix the engine and transmission, what are the upgrades that will make sense and will not be a big budget increase. For example, I like Harpo response:

ARP studs
ARP rod bolts
996 oil pump
996 cams
--- I am not sure about boring

Harpo thanks, I was reading only about upgrading to 964 oil pump and cams, but now I will also review with the shop considering the 996.

Mepstein, the parts - I will talk with the shop. But I will get three quotes, and if he can be close to the quotes - good we are in business.

Peter, the budget, I have some freedom. I am not planning on selling the car, but you always have to consider that option (I had a friend who got cancer and sold his Thunderbird - sad story. Sometimes the good things are there to help us on the bad things). In addition, I only drive weekends and around town. Therefore, I don't want to have a crazy upgrade and narrowing my market - if tomorrow I have to sell it. (Unfortunately there is a good budget, because I was saving to buy a Porsche Carrera T. I went to the dealership back in January and they told me: -" We can take your downpayment and give you a nice 992 in Jan 2020". I said, Thank you and walk away... after many years of savings, the dream ended)

You might ask, why were you considering e85? I read that is cooler fuel compare with 93, and supports higher compression. unfortunately there are a lot of drawbacks and as result I am not any longer considering it (in addition to narrowing my market).


Thanks for the advise, I really appreciate!






Happy Independence Day!

I'd be weary of any shop that lets the customer pick out the parts and/or supply them. You are admittedly new to this and yet you are trying to pick out the parts for a (hopefully) experienced engine builder to build into an engine. Just like a customer who wants to pick out the brand of paint to paint their car, the wrong person is making the decisions. Every engine builder will have parts and systems they are comfortable and confident with. Throwing a list of parts at a builder without the understanding behind them is letting the inmates run the asylum. 2nd, a shop makes money on parts and labor. If you reduce their normal profit margin, why would they do your build over one that is paying normal shop rates. It wouldn't be because they are busy or good.
If you trust the shop you have in mind, a better approach is to discuss what you want from the rebuild and what you need to budget to get you there. Then let the shop put together a plan that works for both of you. Good luck with the build and happy 4th.

David - I'm 99% sure the 996 oil pump doesn't work in a 3.2
A 930 or GT3 pump will work but usually isn't needed, even for a hot street 3.2

+ 1 on Mep's parts program. When supplying parts to a builder where no prior relationship exists, if something's not right along the way or worse, in the end, you---not the builder nor the parts supplier---will most likely be paying for corrections.

Thinking of my own 3.2 > 3.4 build, I chose to define "performance" not as adding HP but as building in endurance/durability. That thinking focused on reducing reciprocating weights, balancing motive parts well beyond Porsche specs, minimizing friction, and refining lubrication. While these can serve +HP... the thinking behind it all cuts a different path. Research led to...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1562272189.jpg

Mahle (among others) will allow you to custom design pistons. My goal = cut off as much fat as possible without sacrificing structural integrity. Mahle will help make design decisions based on owner objectives. Or, supply them a CAD file. Mahle makes one-off prototypes for product inspection prior final production. I found them very helpful.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1562272189.jpg

Ultra strong low weight pins---I forgot metal spec/source. You can find by Googling.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1562272460.jpg

LN Engineering does Nikasil cylinders... and they collaborate with Mahle.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1562272460.jpg

Reducing friction between motive surfaces...


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1562272460.jpg

Refining position of rod bore in piston to ease stress on piston, rings and cylinder. Weight reduction is also a factor in rod selection. Very exacting tolerances in all assemblies is called for. Doing this yourself, you can invest as much time as you want to achieve a very high degree of precision. When working with a shop, achieving beyond "standard" precision---provided shop is capable---gets expensive.


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/lBb1ZDGXmBs" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Force feed oiling to pins. This is Carillo brand. Other makers do same. Was debate on whether this was worth doing provided a case having squirters... in which case squirters could be sized up...then forget drilling rods. (I liked idea of forcing.) Ultimately there was a noticeable weight reduction per piston assembly that when X's 6... the figure varies depending on assembled components---regardless, the figure is consequential compared to stock parts.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1562272460.jpg
Credit: I will find who did this and edit later.

Cross-drilling crank to aide lubrication---a proposed requirement along with larger oil pump (were one to force feed pins.) Parcel to achieving silky smooth running engine is zeroing out alignment of crank's journals. All bores should be treated same. Boat tailing case to ease airflow inside case. Knife-edging crank weights.

... This barely scratches surface of what can be done when thinking of engineering a build for endurance. Of course parts & work here---similar to adding HP---add dollars to build. While I did not project ROI, and based on not running pizz out of an endurance build, my thinking = eventually endurance-build dollars do have a return (provided car is kept long term by owner.)

.

My advice is speak to William Knight, for a no BS scenario that delivers results

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/129421-william-knight-superhero.html

With William’s advice mine came through pretty well:
https://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/907542-gt3-crank-3-2-3-4-a.html

Thanks Discseven, I will keep in mind those brands.

In terms of Clutch, is there a particular brand that I should review?



And guys, About the parts, definitely I will give the shop the freedom to buy them from their distributor. But if the price for the part is very high - I will search for another shop. Getting three quotes is the only way that I think I will be abel to see if the price for parts is acceptable.

Sorry guys The 996 oil pump reference was a typo. I meant to say 964

David

A 996 oil pump absolutely fits in a 3.X case - a 996GT3 oil pump that is. Needs case clearancing, but fits.

What does a 964 or 996gt3 pump gain one in this setting (3.4 l displacement bump with motronic?) haven’t thought of Carrera oil pump as weak link in same way as rod bolts or head studs ...

Nobody can give you an accurate quote until they tear down the engine, clean, inspect and measure all the parts. Many parts, including the case, can fall into 3 categories; use as-is, have refurbished, toss and buy new. Same with the trans. Until then, it's all a (very inaccurate) guess. There is often no set labor price for rebuilding an engine for the same reasons as above. There might be a "best case", average and worst case scenario but until it's all laid out on the table, you are just guessing. Picking a shop based on parts pricing is the wrong way to go. That's what got so many people in trouble with motor meister.

In this kind of build it's probably overkill. A GT3 pump will pump more and be better suited to high RPM work but again, save it for a big build.

964 gives you more volume and reliability and is recognized as one of the better more durable of the production pumps.

thanks catorce -- so, in this type of build, unless the 3.2/carrera oil pump needs to be replaced (failed or worn out), no compelling reason to upgrade.

What ecu is running all this? If aftermarket, I’d still consider a flex fuel tune for e85, as that’s an easy few hp picked up whenever you feel like popping some in.
And would make use of twin plug stuff easier if you wanted to implement that

Hi mepstein, yes the budget is considering a good scenario. And until they inspect inside - they will be able to give me a more precise quote.

and guys if I was asking this question, it is because not easy to invest 20-30K on a car. But I got a good idea. Thanks

you can also keep the stock 3.2L pump and blueprint it

Guys, I really appreciate all the inputs. The only thing that I couldn't figure out and gave up -the twin plug.

I was hopping to get a 3.4, 964 oil pump, 964 cams, twin-plug, compression 10.5 or 11. unfortunately the Andial splitter is not any longer available. That was a problem that I couldn't solve. My mechanic suggested me to use Clewett Eng. and manage the time from crankshaft. We were ready to proceed that way, when we called Steve Wong; he told us the implications.

He explained us the time will not any longer be managed by the ECU, therefore we will loose the big advantage of twin-pluging the Enginee (TP). The main thing on TP, it is that you can retard the time between 8-10 degrees. Steve has configurations that will take advantage of the compression, muffles, etc.

I feel disappoint that I couldn't find a solution to replace the Andial Splitter. And I will live this post - hopefully someone could share their experience and a feature Pelican member can take advantage.

Doesn't Sal Carceller build something similar to the Andial Splitter?

Several years ago, I rebuilt the 3.0 engine in my SC to 3.3SS specs. I used the KN 100mm slip fit cylinders, 10.1:1 Mahle pistons, Carrera heads, 964 cams and the Electromotive XDi twin plug ignition system. Due to some machining that had been done on the heads, actual compression ratio came out at 10.8:1. The XDi system was quite easy to install and works great! This engine will happily putter around town but turn into a tiger when the pedal hits the metal! The only thing I didn't replace was the CIS injection. After reading much about the CIS limitations, I wanted to see what I could get out of it before changing to ITBs or carbs. Turned out that the CIS with some mods works great, allowing the engine to run strong all the way up to the 7500 rpm ignition cutout setting. With the twin plug ignition, this engine runs quite well on pump gas (91-93 octane). I shopped for parts for this engine for several years (5) but still wound up with a bit over $10K in parts. I did all the teardown, cleaning and assembly labor myself. Now, six years later, I am still completely happy with the way it turned out and would not change anything!

Fred, the point that I was making in regards with the XDi - the tunning is not ideal. I have no doubts that you car has a big punch. Review my comment from the perspective that once you change compression, fuel, cams, headers and twin plug - tunning the car will help you to take full advantage of those modifications.

XDi Timing Control
 

The timing control on the XDi system is pretty sophisticated. In addition to "built in" adjustments, there are 4 infinitely adjustable timing controls on the control box for fine tuning. Knob #1 sets the initial timing between 400 and 1000 rpms, knob #2 sets timing above 3000 rpms, knob #3 allows timing advance (or retard) above 8000 rpms, knob #4 sets the ignition cutout point or rpm limiter. The actual advance can be measured using a digital voltmeter. An example "starting point" for timing a street engine is recommended to be Initial knob = 12 degrees, 3000 knob = 21 degrees (which is added to the initial knob), 8000 rpm knob = -2 (subtracted) and knob 4 at some reasonable level. On my engine it is set at 7500 rpms. Also, keep in mind that my system is about 6 years old and current units will have been improved significantly. The system fire each of the two plugs from different coils to insure full voltage to each plug. The instructions that came with the system are much more detailed and you can find a copy on the Clewett web site. Whatever you decide to do with your engine, good luck! Just remember, it is always cheaper to do it right the first time!

Yes, I have a better solution than the andial splitter.
https://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/899908-andial-splitter-simpler-alternative-solution.html
Then scroll down to post # 59

I've been using Sal's splitter with my 3.4L twin plug since he started making them and has been faultless even on the track and in the pouring rain - not at the same time :-).
I used to have an Andial splitter which was OK but not as good as Sal's IMO.

Andial splitter schematic
 

When I owned the Andial splitter I traced out the circuit. In case you're young or an analog only engineer, a "7400" is TTL NAND gate that's was popular in the 1970's and 80's before everything went surface mount. In this circuit, it was used to invert the signal from the car's computer (DME).

The date on the image is from 2004. Sorry for the crappy image.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1608046327.jpg

As others have said it all comes dowm to budget. It is easy to spend 30 grand on a 911 engine with all the bells and whistles. You will not recoup that upon sale.

I did lots of reading on this site when I had my engine done. I did some minor porting of the heads, mostly smoothing the bores. I went with all ARP bolts for the case and rods, and more critical balancing of the rotating parts, and 964 cams. I wanted the long term reliability and a bit more power. I ended up with 200 RWP. Nothing astonishing, but a little more than stock.

Going through a similar build for my 87 3.2 to 3.4 conversion.

Decided to run 10.5 compression ratio after researching using a higher compression ratio here on Pelican. A ratio above 10.5 was too much based on my west coast gas octane and some feel even this is too high.

Performance enhancements are from 911Chips upgrades to throttle body (bored out), chip, dual plug conversion and DME checked (repair) for problems since I had a couple of solder connections that appeared to be overheated.

For longevity ARP rod bolts and Supertec Performance head stud kit.

It's a slippery slope once you get into it with other upgrades of while I'm in there.

Edit
Forgot to list going with 964 cam grind.

There is an alternate, cleaner, simpler, very inexpensive, and what should be the most reliable solution for twin plugging that I've been providing for a while now, and Harold has this for his car. The setup is all factory Porsche and we've been running this setup on several cars with flawless results. No piggyback modules, transistors, resistors, capacitors, relays, ICs, circuit boards, or extraneous wires to fail. I provide the trigger signal out of the 3.2 DME unit, after which the user uses it to drive a single 993 ignition module, which then drives two coils. You can also use the signal out to drive a pair of ignition modules like a 964, but the 993 ignition module contains two drivers in one package, simplifying and making for a cleaner installation. The ignition modules can drive a pair of 3.2/964 ignition coils (just like a 964), or what I prefer the 993 coil which combines two coils in one package. For the 993 ignition module, you can use factory Por$che, or go with any of the other aftermarket equivalents which I think cost around $60. Diagram is as follows:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1608055431.gif

I just built a 3.4 with Web 20/21 cams, CP 10.3:1 pistons and fresh heads (single plug) in my hot '87. Overall the car feels eager to rev and pulls great. Outside of boost, I wouldn’t have done it differently. Built a much hotter 3.0 race engine and drilled center bearing, flow mods and all the small tricks, but for a street / track (1% of the time) car I'd pulled back on the mods. Frankly, the mods people are posting are for actual race cars, not track days or trips to your local cars and coffee. Then again, it's up to you.

I like building engines and playing with trick parts, so in the end, it will only impact your wallet.