77 911 Very Twitching Handling

[Peabo]

My 77 911S came out of a guy's garage with 270,000 miles having been parked for 20 years. It was a no rust worn out car. No evidence of impact other than a zillion rock chips. I've owned an 84 and 87 Carreras so i have a good feel for how these should handle.
I replaced shocks, suspension bushings and a lot of other items. Once the car was back on the road, the handling was noticeably twitchy. At straight ahead highway speeds, it wanted to pull which ever way you nudged the wheel. Very small inputs would make the car want to move more in that direction. I replaced the steering rack. I changed my tires to Pirelli P6000s - 185 in front, 195 in back. I replaced the inboard rear suspension bushings (the only bushings not previously replaced). A couple months ago i was driving in cross winds and the car was terrifying, not at all planted, very un-Porsche like

Last week my mechanic changed all 4 torsion bars and re-aligned the car. It's been aligned by two Porsche only shops. The 2nd shop confirmed the my regular shop did it right. I've discussed this with lots of Porsche people and have yet to hear an idea that i haven't already tried so I'm asking the greater Pelican community - any ideas?

Thank you

[manbridge 74]

Post alignment sheet

[john walker's workshop]

Tires with soft sidewalls? I know they're new, but try pushing the car sideways with your leg against the front and rear bumpers and see how much body and tire movement you get. Shouldn't move too easily. Watch the tire sidewall at the road.

[86 911]

Maybe it just sat too long and needs to be driven? My '71 VW Bus had a similar problem. Its suspension was refreshed before it was parked but it was very twitchy after being off the road for 10 years. I replaced the steering box, tie rods, etc with no luck. I thought I had a defective steering box since I was all over the road and the car would veer unpredictably from one side of the lane to the next. I took it to the alignment shop where the mechanic confirmed it was ok. He told me just to drive it a couple hundred miles as a lot of these old cars develop a "memory" from sitting so long.

I took it for a mini road trip and after about 400 miles, it noticeably improved. Now, it handles as good as it supposed to. How many miles have you put on it since it sat?

Pulling could be a brake issue. Have you done any work on the brakes? Does it pull when you push on the brakes, or only when you touch the steering wheel?

[Peabo]

Thanks for the feedback so far. 2nd set of P6000s. These are the Porsche rate tires. Brakes are all new and work perfect. This car has been on the road now for 5,000 miles.

[86 911]

Originally Posted by Peabo

Thanks for the feedback so far. 2nd set of P6000s. These are the Porsche rate tires. Brakes are all new and work perfect. This car has been on the road now for 5,000 miles.

Ok, that rules out my ideas! Interested to see what it could be though.

[manbridge 74]

Did you use Elephant sport hardness in front? I've used these on several cars including my own. Feels a lot more composed.

[Peabo]

Yes.

Originally Posted by manbridge 74

Did you use Elephant sport hardness in front? I've used these on several cars including my own. Feels a lot more composed.

[Mixed76]

Ride height correct, front spoiler in place? Any different with a full tank of gas? Front end can get pretty wild in windy conditions if air is getting under the car, worse if you don't have any weight in the nose.

You say it's bad at highway speed, where aero comes into play. Does it drive normally at neighborhood speeds?

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[rswannabe]

Wheel bearings good and properly torqued? Try rocking the tops of your wheels side to side while stationary.

[Evan Fullerton]

Loose wheel bearings is a good thing to check. Also if the struts/spindles have been apart, make sure the spacer between the inner race and the spindle is in there. A friend assembled some struts without that spacer and the results were bad.

[AlKidd]

Too much front toe out can make a car very twitchy and unable to track in a straight line. Is there a chance something is worn causing it to move to toe out while driving?

[jac1976]

I know you say the alignment was done, but as Manbridge mentions, the post sheet would likely help those here on the board. What’s the toe front and rear? Ride height? Could it be bump steer issues?

[Antomero]

Originally Posted by Peabo

My 77 911S came out of a guy's garage with 270,000 miles having been parked for 20 years. It was a no rust worn out car. No evidence of impact other than a zillion rock chips. I've owned an 84 and 87 Carreras so i have a good feel for how these should handle.
I replaced shocks, suspension bushings and a lot of other items. Once the car was back on the road, the handling was noticeably twitchy. At straight ahead highway speeds, it wanted to pull which ever way you nudged the wheel. Very small inputs would make the car want to move more in that direction. I replaced the steering rack. I changed my tires to Pirelli P6000s - 185 in front, 195 in back. I replaced the inboard rear suspension bushings (the only bushings not previously replaced). A couple months ago i was driving in cross winds and the car was terrifying, not at all planted, very un-Porsche like

Last week my mechanic changed all 4 torsion bars and re-aligned the car. It's been aligned by two Porsche only shops. The 2nd shop confirmed the my regular shop did it right. I've discussed this with lots of Porsche people and have yet to hear an idea that i haven't already tried so I'm asking the greater Pelican community - any ideas?

Thank you

Did you have the car corner balanced ?

[rswannabe]

Multiple alignments by knowledgeable shops makes me think it is not an alignment issue. Corner balance also would not lead to the problems the OP is describing. To me it sounds like a matter of CHANGING alignment while driving. That means something is loose. Big suspension pieces would likely have been caught by the alignment techs.

I had a very similar problem with my 914-6 years ago. Very unstable and skittish while travelling in a straight line, especially at higher speed. Yet very stable in corners. It turned out to be a loose rear wheel bearing. It was just loose enough to add an element of rear wheel steering to the car that would alter side to side depending on road crown, wind, ext. It made for VERY disconcerting handling. Yet the car was fine while cornering as it would load up to one side or the other and then be stable. Once I tracked it to the wheel bearing (by rocking the top of the wheel side to side as I suggested above), I pulled it apart and inspected it for damage, then reassembled and properly torqued it. Problem fixed!

[RobFrost]

Exactly my thoughts - loose rear wheel alignments. With the wheels in the air, see what you can move. If they won't move by hand, lever gently with a pry bar. In order to cause the described behaviour, I.e. exaggerated steering, either a pivot of the front suspension is loose behind the front wheels, or a pivot of the rear suspension is loose in front of the rear wheels.

Check all parts of the steering are bolted up firmly. Does it have power steering fitted? Also check all the steering linkage from the steering wheel to the front wheels for play. Can you rock the steering wheel without turning the front wheels?

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[manbridge 74]

Good point about the rear steer effect with worn bearings.

Another possibility and thing I always do when aligning these is to push out on the front edges of front wheels while watching toe setting. This approximates road forces, when the car is moving the wheels toe out. So you don’t want to set toe at zero static but with some amount of press. I think the manual called for around 40lbs but would have to check. Strive for the most caster if stability is a goal and make sure they are equal side to side.

[targa44]

I haven't thought about it in years, but the twitchiness I had - came from the rear end. In that instance, it was a loose rear castellated nut to keep the wheel on. Someone forgot the cotter pin.

good luck,

[Peabo]

I don't have the alignment sheet but this shop does only Porsche so i'm confident they got it right. The've aligned my previous four Porsches. I know front wheel bearings are good. I'll figure out how to check rear. I do know the front is very tight and without play.

I agree with the comments that this "feels" like something is loose but so far, all the wise people who looked at it say it's good. Thanks for the comments. I'll check the rear wheel bearings and wait for further wisdom

[Old H2S]

The easiest and fastest thing to do is get someone else to drive the car while you drive a second car and follow ..
Make your car go straight and you change lanes going to both sides of your car from behind and look for problems like "crabbing" where your car drives straight but the tires are not tracking in the same plane.
How many times have we all driven down the road and seen problems on a car just because we were in a dynamic where a bad shock on a wheel is jumping up and down or a wobbley wheel from hitting a curb.
Maybe it is just me, I spot all kinds of crap when I drive, wife thinks I'm nuts. She thinks I am looking at something too long and I will point out a bad part or bad paint match.