Dead and warm battery.

[Bitte ein Bit]

86' 911 driven yesterday and 3-4 times weekly never had this issue.

Went to move the car to the other garage and the thing was dead. Went to check the battery and just by habit touched the battery and it was warm/quite warm.

Pulled the battery and it's still warm to the touch. Was going to start charging (trickle) but wanted to come here first.

I've never had a warm battery in a car that's been sitting overnight.

Battery date is 2018.

Thought I had left the glove box open but not sure that would cause drainage after shutting the car down and not seeing any lights on in a dark garage. That's the only thing I can think of. Headlights off, no turn signal accidentally hit/left on...

I've just never had a warm battery before in all the years of driving, especially one that has been sitting overnight. I have read through a lot of threads and not finding a decent answer.

If the battery was not getting charged while driving yesterday could this be the problem? I am not sure discharging a battery would cause it to be warm to the touch...

Again, not anything I have experienced...

Any thoughts are truly appreciated...

Erik

[Bitte ein Bit]

Alright, a "somewhat terrifying" update.

About an hour after this post I started to install the new battery.

No key in the ignition, car as always in neutral (thank god) and when I hooked up the positive the car tried to fire up.

Again there was no key in the ignition and as soon as I made contact with the battery/positive the car was trying to turn over.

Scared the (sorry no other way to say it) **** out of me...

THOUGHTS????

[Mike Billings]

The solenoid that is part of the starter can fail in a way that causes engine to turn over without key in ignition. Feel like a new starter?

[Bitte ein Bit]

I just installed a new starter, about a year ago. The High Torque Starter (part# PEL-GE-STHT) from our host. Not to say they can't fail of course.

Could it have anything to do with the ignition switch? The key has felt different at shut down but thought it was just my imagination.

Appreciate the input...the search continues!

Erik

[47silver]

Always connect ground last

[Bitte ein Bit]

Originally Posted by 47silver

Always connect ground last

You are correct. Stated that wrong.

I did the normal connection (pos 1st neg 2nd) two times initially without the key in the ignition - starter starts turning over...


...last time when I came in to ask the question here I did just hook and unhook the positive trying to see if key in key out of the ignition made a difference - 95 degree garage and total frustration I guess...

Again, thanks for pointing that out.

Starter turns over either way I connect the battery and with or without key.

Ran great yesterday running errands. Put it up for the night to wake up to a dead battery (warm/very warm to the touch) and a starter that turns over with no key in the ignition with my fully charged spare battery.

[John W.]

A warm battery means something was definitely drawing serious current.

[Bitte ein Bit]

Well, I have disconnected everything for the night.

So, with no key in the ignition the minute I connect the battery (new fully charged) the starter turns over and over but the car will not start/run. The starter just keeps going...

That was the outcome on my last attempt.

Hopefully by morning someone has an idea of what direction to go...

Thanks to all - really appreciate your input.

[timmy2]

Disconnect the yellow wire to the starter then connect the battery and see if it still wants to try to start.
If it does, it isn’t the ignition switch.
Or, even easier, just disconnect the 14 pin connector at the fuse panel and connect the battery to test the same.

If it still tries to start: Pull the starter and see if the bendix is stuck.
New means nothing for reliability and longevity these days with where the parts are likely made…

[Bitte ein Bit]

Originally Posted by timmy2

Disconnect the yellow wire to the starter then connect the battery and see if it still wants to try to start.
If it does, it isn’t the ignition switch.
Or, even easier, just disconnect the 14 pin connector at the fuse panel and connect the battery to test the same.

If it still tries to start: Pull the starter and see if the bendix is stuck.
New means nothing for reliability and longevity these days with where the parts are likely made…

Well, woke up early to do just what you stated. Disconnect the yellow wire from the starter, read your post and great idea to just disconnect the 14pin conn.

Did that and upon hooking up the battery the starter immediately starting turning over.

So....guess that means I need to pull/replace the starter.

I am reading on the internals of starters and the system itself trying to figure out how over night this could happen. Car and starter were solid. Grounds are good and wiring appears to have no issues...shut down the car the night before and everything was fine, sounded fine, etc...

Can a starter/internals just fail overnight and cause a constant drain on the battery? ...


Appreciate the response timmy2, saved me from getting under the car at 6am.

I don't mind replacing things, that's easy, but this has made me a bit paranoid in regards to what a worse case scenario could be undetected.


Thanks -
Erik

[Bitte ein Bit]

Update:

My wife reminded me she went for a run yesterday morning 5am or so and later in the day told me I must have left the compressor on or the water softener system was running loud in the garage. Something was loud in the garage...

I heard it also but it didn't click at that point as one neighbor is doing yard work/landscaping and another is remodeling their home - thought it might have been something in relations to that - not at 5am of course but later that morning.

We now think it was the car trying to turn over - on its own...at 5am in the garage.

Is that possible with just a failing starter???

[JSV798]

If it's just the solenoid you don't need to replace the starter motor - just the solenoid. My 1978SC is now on its third solenoid. The 44 year old starter motor is fine. I've just returned from a 6-day trip and the car ran well. Starter motor with a new solenoid fitted in 2020 working really well.

I often wonder how many good starter motors are discarded just because they need a new solenoid. It sounds as though the solenoid on your car has stuck in the on position. You could try to hit it with a hammer to see if it will free off.

Roy

[JSV798]

Another thought: could something be shorting out the two main terminals on the solenoid. And is the engine turning over or is it just the starter operating? I ask this as if the two main terminals are shorted out with a screwdriver (or similar) the the starter will operate but the engine won't turn over as the pinion hasn't been levered into mesh.

Roy

[Bitte ein Bit]

Originally Posted by JSV798

Another thought: could something be shorting out the two main terminals on the solenoid. And is the engine turning over or is it just the starter operating? I ask this as if the two main terminals are shorted out with a screwdriver (or similar) the the starter will operate but the engine won't turn over as the pinion hasn't been levered into mesh.

Roy

So engine is not turning over/on just the starter is turning over...of course with or without key.

[Bitte ein Bit]

Originally Posted by JSV798

If it's just the solenoid you don't need to replace the starter motor - just the solenoid. My 1978SC is now on its third solenoid. The 44 year old starter motor is fine. I've just returned from a 6-day trip and the car ran well. Starter motor with a new solenoid fitted in 2020 working really well.

I often wonder how many good starter motors are discarded just because they need a new solenoid. It sounds as though the solenoid on your car has stuck in the on position. You could try to hit it with a hammer to see if it will free off.

Roy

New starter, not a Bosch, but a High Torque Starter sold here. Been great for a year...read/heard/thought it would do well down here with the Texas heat...at least better than my failed Bosch unit.

[ant7]

I think Roy has hit the nail on the head, Sounds like it could be the solenoid has an internal short.
Hope you get it sorted.

[timmy2]

I’m glad the ignition test worked for you.
Crappy the new $250 starter only lasted a year.

[emac911]

I own several different marques. The aftermarket garbage is not unique to one brand. I try my best to buy OEM whenever possible. I am restoring an old 240z right now and getting quality parts is crazy hard. Glad nothing shorted out and melted!

A hard tap on the solenoid may knock it line, but I wouldn't ever trust it again. Replace and move on. Sucks.

[bickyd]

Ignition switch worn out and it inadvertently cooked the solenoid on the starter by maintaining contact till the battery died from continuous operation. does the key feel sloppy?

[Bitte ein Bit]

Originally Posted by bickyd

Ignition switch worn out and it inadvertently cooked the solenoid on the starter by maintaining contact till the battery died from continuous operation. does the key feel sloppy?

Not sloppy per se...but...and I know some can relate I may be telling myself it feels different now that I've researched it. Definitely not sloppy but not precise either...

Good thing is I have my old 911 that was totaled with only 60,000miles on it so I have a spare...sadly I see it's a pain in the rear to change.