Metal in oil filter

bdonally · 10-30-2017, 05:51 PM

Opened my oil filter and found a lot of non ferrous metal bits.
Based on searches, it doesn't look good but I'd appreciate any comments, particularly from anyone who has had a similar situation - what was found when you took the engine apart?
And is there anything that could cause this that doesn't involve bearings?
Anything worth checking before it comes out?

DRACO A5OG · DRACO A5OG's Garage

How many miles do you have on her, which brand and weight of oil are you using?

At least filter is doing it's job, how did the magnetic plug look, fuzzy or like a star exploded fuzz?

Are they magnetic or aluminum?

pmax · pmax's Garage

Sorry, OP , that looks like bearing material. Only course of action now is to tear it down.

On the bright side, you might have caught it early enough before worse things happened !

Porboynz · Porboynz's Garage

Almost certainly bearing material, I guess a rod end. Pull it apart before you lose a crank or rod or both.

theiceman · 10-31-2017, 05:21 AM

im no expert but I would have thought if it were bearing material it would be more a bronze colour . does that not look like aluminum ?

really I guess it irrelevant since its tear down time.

tobluforu · tobluforu's Garage

What made you decide to open up the filter?

jlex · jlex's Garage

And how did you get it opened.... hacksaw?

bkreigsr · 10-31-2017, 06:37 AM

Send an oil sample to one of the analysis companies to find out exactly what's going on.

I've been using Blackstone for the past 20 years and have received nothing but the best service.
Others here on the forum disagree with my choice of vendor, but hey, they've done good by me so I stick to them and have a consecutive paper trail as the engines age.
(five vehicles, including one TDI with 295.000 miles.)

FWIW, they offer free sample kits.

Bill K

Goth · 10-31-2017, 06:46 AM

Shortly after buying my 1984 911; I had a timing chain jump a ramp at startup. It was loud and sounded like rattling metal. I initially thought my engine was toast and turned it off right away. Then started thinking about the timing chains. I started the engine a couple more times and the sound went away. Pulled the chain covers and found the timing chains stretched (~105,000 miles on motor). I put in new chains and ramps and never had a problem since. If you just bought the car or have ever heard this type of noise; I think it could definitely generate a fair amount of case material in the oil.

I hope this helps ya!

bdonally · 10-31-2017, 04:38 PM

Thanks for all the input.
I've owned the car for 15 years and have put on about 100K kms, currently at about 180K.
Did a top end rebuild about 40K ago due to broken rings. All seemed OK with the bottom end so I didn't split the case.
Car gets a quite a bit of track use and is run pretty hard.
Gets a steady diet of Brad Penn 20W50.
Oil pressure hasn't changed much over time although once hot it peaks at about 3.75.
I recently replaced the chain ramps, the chains looked fine and there was no evidence of them hitting the case.
I cut open the filter just out of curiosity. The magnetic plug was clean except for a little bit of fuzz. Opening the filter was a mess involving a chisel and snips.
The bottom end was rebuilt before I bought the car. ARP bolts and studs, Ti retainers , balancing , valve guides etc in anticipation of racing although it has only done DR.

Still.sounds like.its got to come out.
Oh well needed a winter project.

Reiver · 10-31-2017, 04:54 PM

A filter cutter. like a can opener. is an inexpensive tool and I open my filters every few oil changes....in that way you know you are not contaminating the element with cuttings.

What year/model is your 911?

sugarwood · sugarwood's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlex

And how did you get it opened.... hacksaw?

Oil Filter Cutter | eBay

DRACO A5OG · DRACO A5OG's Garage

So, are the fragments magnetic or not?

180K miles, yeah bearings are probably gone or going. That is when I split her and found thrust and IMS bearing were down to the copper.

Not scientific, but next engine pull, with belt off, see how much play there is on the crank "in and out" I bet you will feel allot. That would be the thrust bearing #1 worn down.

bdonally · 10-31-2017, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRACO A5OG

So, are the fragments magnetic or not?

Not magnetic

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRACO A5OG

180K miles, yeah bearings are probably gone or going. That is when I split her and found thrust and IMS bearing were down to the copper.

Not scientific, but next engine pull, with belt off, see how much play there is on the crank "in and out" I bet you will feel allot. That would be the thrust bearing #1 worn down.

Actually 180K kms, so 110K miles, maybe 20K or so of that track time.
When you found the thrust and IMS bearings shot, how were the rods and mains?
And did the IMS and thrust wearing down to the copper damage the crank or IMS?

rrcrawford70s · 10-31-2017, 09:29 PM

What I had!!

I forget the name...the aluminum gear was wearing, causing aluminum shavings to be caught by the filter.

manbridge 74 · 10-31-2017, 09:39 PM

After you cut open around three filters with a hacksaw it is easy to detect the coarse steel sawing fragments from the other finer metal bits. Just sayin for those who don’t want to bother with another tool.

Hopefully not too much damage here.....

DRACO A5OG · DRACO A5OG's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by bdonally

Not magnetic

Actually 180K kms, so 110K miles, maybe 20K or so of that track time.
When you found the thrust and IMS bearings shot, how were the rods and mains?
And did the IMS and thrust wearing down to the copper damage the crank or IMS?

As posted above, it might be the Aluminum IMS gear wear probably due to the IMS bearings wearing down, causing slop and smashing into the other harder gear ergo the shavings. Won't really know until you split it to confirm.

The other thing could be spun crank bearings, hope not. Probably not.

110K, not bad, but as you know, track time wears things a bit faster than street use. Per Bruce Anderson engine should be rebuilt around 120K miles so you are probably there.

As far as the Crank and IMS shafts, I was lucky and they were still in spec so I used Standard Spec bearing replacements. I did have both checked for cracks and trueness, measured then polished. I did the IMS for extra measure. Gears looked good.

The worn bearings to copper did not harm the shafts as the shafts are considerably harder, The harm comes when metal shaving/dirt gets in between the worn bearings and shafts i.e. scoring or marring or worse gouging.

I am sure other pro builders will chime in but this is just my take on my rebuild experience and observations.

Best wishes Brother,

J

theiceman · 11-02-2017, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rrcrawford70s

What I had!!

I forget the name...the aluminum gear was wearing, causing aluminum shavings to be caught by the filter.

WOW Ray that's incredible !! do you have that IMS drive gear on your trophy wall now ?
What Op showed originally looked a lot like what you are showing , not bearing material.

Reiver · 11-02-2017, 08:36 AM

110k miles and worn bearings is pretty darn unusual for a 3.0-3.2...When my old 930-16 was opened the bearings looked excellent at 230k miles.

bdonally · 11-02-2017, 07:15 PM

Thanks for all the information.
Whether its the main, rod, or IMS bearings or the IMS gear, it still has to come out.

This will be my excuse to freshen the gearbox, check the clutch, mess around some with the suspension, and fix the fender that came into contact with a tire wall.

Not sure of exact timing, but once I do the teardown, Ill revive this thread with my findings.