i have been following you on IG for a while (tail_spinz)
Porsches are kind of that way. you put a whole bucket of money and a few years sorting them out. Then they tend to be stable for many years. then they need a ton of work, then they are stable again.
you have put a lot of work into that car, you may be closer to a reliable car than you think.
A few years ago i almost sold my sc to buy a 997 GT3RS, at the very last moment i decided to keep my 911 sc and buy a 996 gt3 instead, thinking i would love the gt3 more and would eventually sell the sc and the 996 gt3 for the 997 rs. 3 years later i have my 911 sc and no GT3. They are amazing cars, but they really just aren't as exciting as an old hot rod 911. i would let the car sit for another month or two and allow yourself to get excited about the car again.

good luck man

If the SC goes, it goes for a 997.2, 981 GTS, or maybe a 987.2 S/R. Something very sporty but not over the top.
If I can keep from selling the SC, I'll probably get a 987.2 or a 981 S in a year or two either way. That's probably the way I should go, but GD the SC makes me crazy some times.

I think you may be underestimating the current state of the car.
The oil level sender needs replaced and I'm waiting for the BTI CAN gauge to come back from a firmware update. It starts and drives a-ok, and otherwise is fine. All I'm doing to prep for Rennsport is an alignment, an oil change, a clutch cable, and packing some spare parts.

IDK of any car available that I wouldn't want to modify.

Yeah, this has been something itching in the back of my mind. If I buy a 981 while still owning the 911, it may prove that I'm not so keen on a newer Porsche at all.

Oh buddy. I love E46M3s. (unless it's Phoenix Yellow)
I do love the challenge of 'improving' the car.
I've never even considered the idea of, "What would you do if you weren't constantly working on that old 911?"

Hey, Levi! (I know who you are...and your SC has been a source of inspiration for the LBDC.)
I am definitely over the first couple humps in the car being needy and pretty well nestled into a little valley of it being reliable. (Or so I think)
It's interesting that you sold the GT3 and kept the SC. That's high praise and somewhat unexpected.
There's the guy in the PNW that sold his 3.6 widebody car and bought a 997...and then sold that for a GT3 Touring. I talked to him a while back and he said he didn't regret the jump from air to water at all. I need to drive more water-pumpers before I commit to bailing on the SC. It can still be that the money I'd spend starting a new build is better spent on the jalopy I have.

End of the day.......if you're at a place where you don't wake up wanting to take it for a drive....you've answered your own question.

Time to sell it and get out.

I hear you. There is definitely a line though between bolt-ons and Frankenstein. My car is definitely the latter, and much of the modification happened prior to my ownership, so I find myself doing a lot of problem solving that's above my pay grade and ability.

I've owned at least two dozen classics over the last 35 years and none of them have made me as happy as the 911. There is simply no driving experience I've had that even comes close. No engine noise either.

For me, new cars bore me to tears. I could pick up a newer watercooled Porsche but I feel like the experience is muted and muffled. Nothing connects you to the driving experience in the same way as a classic 911.

I can understand the frustration - my stupid windshield is leaking and now I need to pull the fuel sender to clean it as the gauge is bouncing. It never ends. But it's easy to look past the problems and just enjoy it for what it is. Expecting new car behaviour from a 45-year-old one is just a recipe for frustration.

My opinion, keep it. I think you'll miss it.

This is not a criticism of your build because it's your car but I will say I think your relentless pursuit of cutting weight has, in my opinion, left you with a cabin that appears inhospitable to drive in basically condition but backroads with perfect weather. What do I mean by this? If you want to drive it frequently or even semi-daily there will be times where you will be sitting in traffic, it's 94 degrees out, there's a semi idling next to you, it smells like exhaust fumes and as cool as the car may look, handle etc. you'd probably rather roll up the windows, crank the ac and put some music on or something.

That being said-

I rarely drive my 912E or my E30, they are both great turn key drivers but I've certainly thought about selling one or both lately. I probably won't but it's crossed my mind recently.

Counter to "is it time to sell", is factoring and measuring regret. My 911 sales are a chorus of regret, 67S, 87 Carrera no sunroof, 72S Targa built to 2.5, 70E... If I could have one back it would be the 70E - and it was a pain in the ass. My decision was not born of frustration, but rather reality. Private schools and college bills took over for 15 years. Had I sat tight, the 70E would have paid a good part of that bill...

When I got the green light to look, first car I brought home was a 2008s. Great shape, one owner. My wife looked at me and said, NO. But only because it didn't need anything, and that I would be hunting for an air cooled car within 6 months. She was not wrong.

I still covet a 3.2 slick top coupe - BUT, love the ability to take the top off and cruise in the Targa. Will keep this until I cannot get in and out of it, and will dump money to fix things that are not really broken. For me the cars are therapy - I can spend 4 hours removing and replacing parts to change out a bolt and I know I have accomplished something. Cheaper than drinking or hiring a therapist.

Im sitting with a 914, which I will never sell....long history.
an 84 cabriolet
a 2006 cabriolet S.

Waiting for the rebuilt motor back for the 2006...
Not sure which one to keep...I do like AC, heated seats, elec roof etc.

Just not sure.

I get it though...but newer cars are in some ways far less fun. We can't fix most things.

Rich

Project fatigue or real and can suck the joy out of ownership. I went through this during a long repair project after an accident and a body shop that strung me along. I felt different (negative) about the car afterwards and for a while. The next Spring after a winter separated, I opened the door and the smell reminded me of why I enjoy it so much. Allow yourself to not care about for a while. Move it down (way down in priority), then come back. If you feel the same negative sentiment, let her go.

That's a fair position to take.


My car was in barn-find condition when I bought it. So I know every nut and bolt. I've documented the EFI build (through spreadsheets on my laptop) so any troubleshooting will be easy and methodical should the need ever arise...or the car be passed on.


This is part of my problem.
I agree no car makes a noise quite like this one...not my old M3, not my old VW R32 (NA, supercharged, or turboed), nor any of the other cars I've owned, ridden in, or driven. And it is wholly unlike other cars when you let it do what it was built to do.


I think people can get the wrong idea about how unpleasant it is inside my car. Spartan? Probably. But it's not an uncomfortable place to ride.
I flatly refuse to spend thousands and thousands of dollars to install modern [electric] AC in my 40+ year old car. It's hideous and still barely gets the job done. All-in, I'm a windows-down person, not an AC person.
I daily drive it all spring/summer/fall unless it might hail or rain many inches during the work day. I don't mind driving it in rain. Hell, I'd drive it in the snow if they didn't put down so much salt here in the midwest. RWD sport coupes are excellent in the snow if you have snowtires and some experience behind the wheel. There is a stereo, decent heat, and heated seats. If it were miserable, Kelly wouldn't ride in it for 8 hours each way to WV or TOD.


This is a recurring theme both in this thread and in this forum. People sell, try something else, and then come back...for more money and less car than they sold the first time. I don't want that to happen to me, if I can avoid it.

And FORREAL. As expensive as cars are, they're one of the more affordable vices. I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't eat meat, I don't gamble (anymore). I have this car, my MTB (and I live in flat-as-hell INDIANA), and some hand-me-down golf clubs from Dad. So when the car is a bummer instead of rad, it's a problem for me.
I suppose I have been unable to wrap my head around how bloody hard it is to make one of these old cars nice and that's where my occasional misery comes from.

Dude….my head hurts, sell it, don’t sell it whatever!

You need to own it either way and move on

Chris...you need to ask yourself what was the reason for getting into this aircooled 911 ownership? If you are disappointed that your current 911 (I think your car is really neat and unique) does not meet your expectations (modern tightness/quietness/dry/etc) then I suggest to sell it. But if you are having doubts to sell it then sell your Q5 and buy a Cayman or other modern sports car while keeping your LBDC (don't do any more major work on it) for a year. Then you'll have a better idea what you want to do (sell or not to sell LBDC). Lastly...ask your wife how she feels about the LBDC.

if youre thinking about this enough to consult the internet, it sounds like youve already made up your mind.
I can speak from my own experience. built a 964, it was raw. sold it thinking i wanted something more refined. a few cars later im in my '83. you might realise what i did, the 'flaws" are character a newer tighter car wont have.
from reading your thread it seems like the trans is your real source of frustrations. i would think if you can get that operating as youd like, you would fall back in love with the car. or not. but thats for you to determine. i know what i bought/sold to end up back where i started (sort of). i purposely went with a SC, if i had gotten another 964 i would have chased that former build.. and that would have been insane.

When is it time to sell? When I no longer enjoy it. When I can no longer take it autocrossing. When I can no longer drive it in the twisties in the Santa Cruz mountains.

-OR-

When I am not able to drive it. When they outlaw gasoline and there is no alternative. When I am physically unable to drive due to a health condition.

I don't have a never-ending build though. If I wanted something to build upon I'd get another 911 that's not as well-kept.

Thanks for this perspective. My wife and I are embarking on private school (kindergarten on up) and I’m feeling some measure of guilt for having an expensive toy in the garage.

It's a part of the family. If Fido refused to retrieve a stick, would you drop him off at the pound?

Both my '72 P-car and my '76 2002 bmw are 'dead-man's-cars". The pink slips change ownership when I'm 6ft under.

No car is perfect but the 915 gearbox is a big let down in G-body experience if you are used to being able to bang shifts in a modern car.

As for rattles, squeaks, and leaks, that’s an ongoing thing but there is definitely a lot of variability based off of the chassis in my experience. Had a never hit, original paint, survivor 912E with the same suspension setup as my Frankenstein used and abused ‘75 911S and there was no comparing them. The 912E was tight as a drum and the 911 chassis was definitely well past its prime in the rigidity and dimensional accuracy department. The 912E was too nice to modify beyond OEM + bolt ons…….. the 911 now has 250ft of chromoly tubing and a VERY expensive G50 gearbox which hopefully solve the 2 things I didn’t like about it.

Hate the steering feel of a 964 with or without power steering, 993 rear suspension leaves a bit to be desired. 996 GT3 built into a street Cup is the only 911 I’d consider over my highly bastardized ‘75 because there is no perfect 911.

I think we've all been there, Chris. And I recognize that your open discussion here is part of your thinking process (you walk around the problem a few times until the right answer feels right).

Some hopefully-helpful questions:

Do you need to sell it to start the next project?

What aspect of 911 ownership has brought you the greatest joy? And are those aspects still fun? If not, why not?

Are the imperfections truly aggravating enough to force the change?

I've often been able to classify "car people" into three distinct modes in which they are the most happy: Builder, Maintainer, and Driver. Which are you? And which does the LDBC need?

Best of luck with the journey.

MrBonus - the decision was less guilt for me than a realistic approach to dealing with the understanding that with parochial school bills, my available resources for my projects was gone. For me, yes it is a car, and a "fun toy." But is also an outlet and escape from the day to day grind. I can disappear in the garage and let the stress of the job melt away, and accomplish something I control. It is my therapy :). I probably should have kept the 70E, and have regrets over selling it - plus I cannot in good conscience afford to replace it. The 88 Targa is a compromise that I have embraced. It is the same years in age as my 70E was from new when I bought it and so there are many things I can continue to renew and update/upgrade over the years. If you can financially swing it, try and keep the car through the school years. Avoid the regret if you can, but if you cannot, just let it go. I had to pretty much completely exit, including Pelican, for 15 years. There were 2-3 toe in the water times to see what the market was doing, and what a reasonable entry point would be, but in the end, it took 15 years. So hold on, if you can, but you can regret selling and it is softened by making the right decision for your family.

Thanks for setting me straight. DM me your phone and I'll just call you next time I'm trying to make a decision. :rolleyes:

Mike,
Solid advice here and more for me to chew on.
Kelly thinks I would be best served by maintaining course for another year until I can afford a 981, buy the 981, drive both for a bit, then make a decsion. Historically, she's not far off the target. (We talked about this last night before reading this post.)

I consult the internet for things like this to gather as much perspective and experience as I can so I can make the best decision. Big decisions for me almost always require a sounding board. What better sounding board for this topic than Pelican?
I agree, the 915 is my primary source of disappointment. I still haven't ruled out going all the way in and g50 swapping it. It would be some time out as g50 swaps are bloody expensive, but it would root out my chief complaint about this car.
Agreed wholeheartedly if I sold this, I couldn't get another SC (probably G at all) as I'd be chasing the things I love about the LBDC and attempting to avoid those I did not.

Now you're just bragging about being close to mountains. ;)

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I have a tidbit to share nonetheless.
I have known far too many parents who abandon their complete identity in the name of raising their families. I'm not saying that's what you're doing, but rather something to be wary of. I have yet to talk to someone who gave up all the things they loved to raise kids who, once the kids were raised, did not experience some great measure of regret for not hanging on a little tighter and 'making it work'. YMMV

I don't think you really want to know how I feel about pets.
But your devotion to holding onto the things you love is admirable.

I agree there is no perfect 911. I often think about your car and wonder how far I'd really have to go to swap in a g50...and if that would push me over the tipping point into long-term devotional love with the LBDC.
And jeebus, 250' of chromoly is a lot of tubes, my dude.

Thank you for recognizing that I oft utilize the sounding board to get perspective.
Let's work through your questions here instead of in my head.
1. Do you need to sell it to start the next project?
Only if I don't allow myself another year before buying another car.

2. What aspect of 911 ownership has brought you the greatest joy? And are those aspects still fun? If not, why not?
Building it, improving it, and then being able to drive something that I built from garbage into a respectable sports car.
Yes

3. Are the imperfections truly aggravating enough to force the change?
IDK yet. I reckon if I had $30k of disposable cash laying around, I'd slam a g50 (or hound Mr. Monson for that sequential 915) into the LBDC and everything else becomes more background noise than big problem. Alas, I do not have such funding at my disposal, so I'm left to waffle whether it is worth the time, money, and work to imrove this one major problem, learn to live with its disappointing performance, or move on.

4. I've often been able to classify "car people" into three distinct modes in which they are the most happy: Builder, Maintainer, and Driver. Which are you? And which does the LDBC need?
I'm 50/50 Builder and Driver. I hate maintenance. I do it because it's necessary, but I will never in my life derive joy from washing cars, vacuuming them, changing oil, or adjusting valves.
I do get great joy from making changes that improve the driving experience.
The LBDC needs a little bit of all 3 right now. One day, I expect it'll just need a Driver, but we're not quite there yet. At least not in my opinion.

This level of experience and persepective is why I started this thread.
Thank you for sharing.