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Help me get this '72T back on the road!
Hello and welcome to this 'get this car back on the road' thread! Some background is here: https://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/1100574-engine-number-decode-help.html#post11434809. However, I think a 'build thread' is more appropriate here since I have a LOT more questions than just how to identify the engine.
Current status is that the car hasn't run in years. Probably a decade. So it sounds like I need to do the following: - jack the car up on stands - clean the engine as best as possible - add oil (it has a leak, don't know where) - turn it over by hand (to start anyway - I can't imagine this would get much oil flowing so once I verify it turns by hand I suppose I can hit the key.) QUESTION - the fuel has been in there for quite a while. Should I be concerned Found a couple old threads with varying opinions (surprise surprise, see below). Should I pull the injectors/fuel lines first to purge old fuel? Go as far as to drop the tank to look for rust?? https://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/1022815-resurecting-cis-6-7-year-sleep.html https://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/1037375-cis-resurrection-after-6-year-nap.html Last edited by CaptRudolf; 08-26-2021 at 07:13 PM.. |
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08-26-2021, 06:44 PM
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Check posts 20 and 21 of this thread. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/183215-winter-storage-checklist.html
Ignore Grady Clay (RIP) at your own risk.
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Harry 1970 VW Sunroof Bus - "The Magic Bus" 1971 Jaguar XKE 2+2 V12 Coupe - {insert name here} 1973.5 911T Targa - "Smokey" 2020 MB E350 4Matic |
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08-27-2021, 12:58 AM
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Any luck getting your 72T back on the road?
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11-09-2021, 02:04 PM
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Opened up the fuel tank and see a little bit of crud in there. Gas is ancient at this point. Tempted to just drain the tank, put in new fuel, turn it over to pump the old gas out of the lines, throw on a new filter and see what happens...
Short version - turning into a winter project. |
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11-09-2021, 06:10 PM
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Siphon or drain tank new gas, fresh oil, dont over fill oil, only 9-10 quarts to start crank it over after verifiing it turns over by hand. See what happens?
If it doesn't start then… Winter project If it starts! Let it idle for a minute or 2 or less and check for leaks. If there are fuel or oil leaks, winter project. If there are none and it runs, drive it slow for 10 min. You might get lucky. Check for leaks, it will smoke. Then plan on spending 2-300$ A month for 6 months and time to do all the deferred maintenance it will need as you drive it to make it yours. Good luck! |
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11-10-2021, 03:29 PM
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I can abide by that methodology! There is a KNOWN oil leak somewhere on the passenger side top of the engine, but in order to accurately find where it is coming from I think I need to give it a good clean and then run it a bit. At one point I had a good idea of the specific leak point, but I'll have to do my homework again.
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11-10-2021, 05:20 PM
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Just dont start it without the garage door open the house closed up and the neighbors away! And a fire extinguisher handy. It will smoke.
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11-11-2021, 02:07 PM
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OK. After a long hiatus the 911T is in my garage, on jacks, and causing problems - as expected. As suggested I drained the old fuel and replaced with new (a couple times to flush), pulled injectors and ran fuel pump (which someone wired direct to the ignition, so it comes on with the key-something to do with putting a '75 engine in a '72??), checked that the engine turns by hand (it does), and added oil.
Lots of cranking and not even a pop (now that I think about it, I believe the hand throttle was in the down position). Noticed that the air sensor plate was stuck UP, did some reading, and ended up disassembling and reassembling the fuel distributor. Just got it back together and it isn't leaking (yay me). However, I wonder if I blinded off the control pressure hole internal to the FD... I got a cheap-O CIS fuel pressure tester off Amazon ($26, couldn't pass up giving it a try. Fittings are junk, but it seems to work... well, the needle moves anyway) so I hooked that up, which is where it starts to get interesting: 0 bar control pressure, <2 bar system pressure, and the system is 'singing' (I assume this is the sound of the injector(s)??). After two minutes of waiting (yes, I was timing) for some control or system pressure to build fuel started dumping out of the exhaust, injector seals were wet -> pulled the spark plugs, fuel dumped out of cylinders 3 & 4... so fuel is flowing, but not when/where it should be (?). Reading through 'Jim's basement workshop' troubleshooting and it sounds like the cold start injector would cause the engine to flood. Either that, or somehow fuel is flowing to the injectors while the air sensor plate is down (stuck plunger? Will have to disconnect the injectors to test). A cold start valve that is stuck open would also make sense as to why the system pressure was low. Pressure regulator valve seal seems to be holding fuel, so I don't think the pressure drop is coming from there. So right now I'm thinking it is some combination of cold start valve (check whether 'regular' injectors are spraying first - good time to test equal flows too, then remove CSV to test), plugged control pressure orifice in fuel distributor (will backtrack to this once I get system pressure where it should be), and WUR (just measured ~30 ohms, but fuel does come out the return side with electric plug disconnected - only one vacuum line, pretty sure there is no thermotime switch). I haven't even found the AAV yet, but I think filling the cylinders with fuel is a good thing to look into first... I'll get some more pictures up shortly. Looking forward to seeing whether anyone else has other ideas on how to move forward. |
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12-04-2022, 08:07 PM
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12-05-2022, 10:50 AM
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Try supergluing a short extension onto the socket to give you some more leverage.
In the future, either use the factory spark plug wrench or make one by welding an extension onto a socket.  Klein 21 “factory spark plug socket” 
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Harry 1970 VW Sunroof Bus - "The Magic Bus" 1971 Jaguar XKE 2+2 V12 Coupe - {insert name here} 1973.5 911T Targa - "Smokey" 2020 MB E350 4Matic Last edited by HarryD; 12-05-2022 at 11:20 AM.. |
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12-05-2022, 11:16 AM
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Thanks, Harry. I just deleted the post about getting the spark plug socket stuck because I got it free, it was embarrassing, and I hoped that no one had seen it
 . Not exactly sure what I did, but persistence paid off I suppose. I don't think I'll keep the rubber bushing in there next time...Now to test some fuel flows. |
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12-05-2022, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Do not remove the rubber insert. Otherwise you will be fishing for a loose plug in the hole. Don’t ask me how I know!
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Harry 1970 VW Sunroof Bus - "The Magic Bus" 1971 Jaguar XKE 2+2 V12 Coupe - {insert name here} 1973.5 911T Targa - "Smokey" 2020 MB E350 4Matic |
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12-05-2022, 11:43 AM
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Get a magnetic plug socket, pulls off easier.
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12-05-2022, 12:59 PM
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HA! Noted.
So I just flipped the key on with the #4 injector hose in a can and I have fuel flow without the engine running. My understanding of the fuel distributor (FD) is that the control pressure should equal the system pressure with just the fuel pump running (engine cold and off). Is that right? Does this mean that I plugged up the little control orifice when I put the FD back together (with the Indianhead head gasket shellac)? I don't really want to keep going after fuel pressure issues if I'm just dumping gas into my cylinders when I shouldn't be (and on the floor in my not-well-ventilated garage). For what it's worth - fuel flow/pressure does seem to increase as I lift on the air sensor plate arm... 
Last edited by CaptRudolf; 12-05-2022 at 04:14 PM.. |
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12-05-2022, 01:41 PM
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So I decided to just go right ahead and pull the whole CIS system out to check everything. I'm sure there are bad injectors, air leaks, etc. etc.
Question: Does anyone know the size of internal retaining ring (aka: internal housing ring, aka: internal circlip) that holds the pivot shaft into the Air Flow Sensor assembly? Mine got a bit mangled coming out... I've tried 14mm & 16mm (too small & too big). 15mm seems like the next logical choice, but I don't need 50 of them (McMaster 50 pack). Then there seems to be some other sizing standard with a φ (Phi) symbol... Last edited by CaptRudolf; 12-27-2022 at 04:22 PM.. |
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12-27-2022, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
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Harry 1970 VW Sunroof Bus - "The Magic Bus" 1971 Jaguar XKE 2+2 V12 Coupe - {insert name here} 1973.5 911T Targa - "Smokey" 2020 MB E350 4Matic |
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12-27-2022, 05:16 PM
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Ok. So I’ve slowly been reading up a bit more on these engines, pulling cis parts off, and tracking down oil leaks. Sounds like these engines had a potential issue with head studs pulling out, so I’m thinking I’ll at least pull the valve covers to see if there is anything loose floating around in there and maybe RE-check torque.
My oil leak investigations have led me to the following photos. My hope is that this is the rear timing chain cover seal (??) and not the mid-case seal. Oil is dropping in a few spots, but the largest one seems to be this one. Pencil is pointing to where the oil seems to be originating. Assuming this is correct it probably makes the most sense to just pull the engine and replace all of the oil seals (except the case-half seal) while I’m at it. Is there enough evidence here to rule out the case-half seal? If everything else looks ok Id rather not rebuild the whole engine to fix this leak (after what i have read about magnesium cases…).   
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04-04-2023, 12:08 PM
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Yes…. At some point someone tried to fix this with external RTV…
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04-04-2023, 12:09 PM
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The pencil seems to point to place where a leak from where the end the bearing/seal is located. Does the engine run? Before you take apart the motor, get is running, if at all possible. This will allow you to determine your path forward.
If it is just some leaks, unless you are adding a lot of oil, I would get everything else squared away.
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Harry 1970 VW Sunroof Bus - "The Magic Bus" 1971 Jaguar XKE 2+2 V12 Coupe - {insert name here} 1973.5 911T Targa - "Smokey" 2020 MB E350 4Matic Last edited by HarryD; 04-04-2023 at 01:22 PM.. |
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04-04-2023, 01:20 PM
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That sounds like a good plan. Thoughts on pulling valve covers while CIS is off to look for loose head bolts? Doesn't seem like a great idea to run it with broken head bolts…
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04-04-2023, 02:00 PM
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