996 hot rods?

[D Hanson]

Originally posted by jpahemi
No I'd rather have the GT3 based case.
j.p.

Haha, you refuse out of principle regardless as to merit which is fine.

Every 911 has had its issues. The air cooleds will need top end rebuilds, the older has head stud issues, the 964 had oil leaks and distributor issues, and the 993 had wiring harness problems and early bugs.

My 996s have been more reliable than my older 911s. My 3.2 and my 964 are/were money pits. Mostly nickel and dime, but I have had my share of (3) top ends rebuilds. I had more money invested in my 90 964 than the total investment of either of my NA 996s when you consider purchase price of the car, repairs, and upgrades.

The potential problem with a 996 is weight and size. I don't see the motor as being a negative. It is great and useable hp and torque for the money.

I spent a lot more than the cost of a 996 motor on upgrades to my 964 NA motor just to get it close to the power of the 996 motor. The 996 also has more to give than the stock 320.

[TimT]

I have a 996 hotrod for ya

twin turbo, 4 cam, water cooled, Haltech EFI

GT2 rear body work

700+ hp, 700+ pound/feet torque

[jpahemi]

what base motor is used for that Haltech twin turbo??
j.p.

[TimT]

its based on a 4 cam supercup engine

[jpahemi]

D Hanson:
Imagine what results you would have had you invested that money on a GT3 motor. Let's see: Ti connecting rods, 8200 rpm and a base of 400 hp out of the box. How much would it cost to get a street 996 to that level. Oh, don't forget having to send the 996 valve cover to Porsche MotorSports so that it won't suffer from oil starvation during high lateral loads.
j.p.
PS. One thing that puzzles me is why didn't they use the street 996 motor as a base for the turbo??

[jpahemi]

Tim:
I rest my case. Could this have been done with a street 996 motor?
j.p.

[D Hanson]

Rest your case. You ignore that the thread was predicated upon economic considerations balanced with performance and that the TT motor cost perhaps 3 times the costs of a NA motor which contrary to the theme of this thread.

Obviously, you do not want to like the 996 NAs and that is cool. There are plenty of people tracking 996 NA motors without problems. There is nothing wrong with the NA 996 motor and it is much MUCH (did I say much) cheaper than the TT or GT2 motor. Both are water pumpers as you called it in another thread.

Its all about the $$$ here and you kind of switched focus. If you can afford a GT3 motor or TT motor, then that is not the point of this thread. Seemed like the point of this thread was an economical hot rod. The NA 996 motor will fill that role well from a cost and performance stand point.

Guys are getting 350 out of them with cheap bolts ons and you can slap a supercharger on it if you want big hp and torque. My 04 C2 had chip, exhaust, and intake and it was substantially quicker than stock. My 04 NA C2 with the addition of very inexpensive bolt on mods would run consistent 4.4s to 4.5s compared to 4.8s stock. My TT with 500 hp would run 3.9s to 4.0s at that time. My ungodly expensive 964 ran 4.8s to 4.9s 0 - 60s.

True, if money was no object, build that 700 hp beast. Based on the budgets being discussed, however, the 996 NA is the best route to go for that price range and will provide better power dollar for dollar over the 964 3.6 or the 993 3.6.

[jpahemi]

No I have no problems with water pumpers; just the fact that Porsche lost their way by producing a street based motor. I love NA cars as long as the case is based on the GT3 unit. When you price a nicely equiped '05 996 or 997 in your in the same price range as a GT3; a car with some roots in racing. From the the depreciation #'s the 996 cars have experienced the market seems to agree. A GT3 will hold it's value because it still remains one of Porsche race breed motors. This thread started as "Hot Rodding a 996"; by the time you're done trying to achieve the same results a stock GT3 gives you've spent enough to buy the real thing and then some. End result doesn't seem to justify the expense. As I've stated from the begining it's all about the motor NOT the car.
j.p.

[Elombard]

I heard the "Porsche experience" cars at Barber are stock 996s and they have no problems. I have no idea how hard they drive in that deal but they see alot of track time.

[edward993]

Dumb question alert:

Has anyone ever heard of fitting a 993TT engine into a 996 chassis? I would think that the 996's improved chassis mated with a seriously tweakable and time/race proven 993TT engine would be a potent weapon ...if it's even possible. Not to mention '99 996 prices are in the cellar, and the engine issues are no longer a consideration.

Edward

[drsimonwong]

I vaguely remember reading about mods on the 996 engine to add baffles to reduce the risk of oil starvation and something about an additional pump by one of the German tuners. Perhaps this will be an answer, though probably not an economical one.

Simon

[Doug&Julie]

In reading about a Boxster spec series, there seems to be a number of people now who offer "fixes" for the 986/996 "oil starvation issues". So, in terms of economics, I'd say this is a minor issue. (..although I don't know for a fact.)

[D Hanson]

Originally posted by jpahemi
No I have no problems with water pumpers; just the fact that Porsche lost their way by producing a street based motor. I love NA cars as long as the case is based on the GT3 unit. When you price a nicely equiped '05 996 or 997 in your in the same price range as a GT3; a car with some roots in racing. From the the depreciation #'s the 996 cars have experienced the market seems to agree. A GT3 will hold it's value because it still remains one of Porsche race breed motors. This thread started as "Hot Rodding a 996"; by the time you're done trying to achieve the same results a stock GT3 gives you've spent enough to buy the real thing and then some. End result doesn't seem to justify the expense. As I've stated from the begining it's all about the motor NOT the car.
j.p.

Depreciation of 996 has a lot more to do with the fact that Porsche built a huge number of 996s and basically flooded the market with them. The same thing is happening with Ferraris right now. They are bulding huge numbers of the 360 and 430 and you are starting to see more and more 360s sitting around which is in turn brining down the price of 355s and 348 are tanking badly.

The 328s and 308s are pretty steady on value, but there are simply fewer of those sitting around, especially ones in good shape with low miles (which is the same with 3.2 and older 911s).

Do you have idea on the production numbers of 996s and 996 TTs v. other models of 911s??? Supply and demand sets the price. There are now a whole lot of cars viaing for a limited market. On top of that, there is a lot of competition in the $ 50k to $ 200k price range now with a lot of new options.

You seem hung up on the fact that you want to believe that the 3.2 or 3.0 or whatever motor is in your car is more comparable to the 996TT motor than a base 996 motor or that the 3.2 or even the 3.6 air cooled is superior to the 3.6 in the NA 996. I think you are incorrect. The water cooled is more powerful and has more potential for power, especially when talking in terms of dollar for dollar.

I think Porsche has always built cars for the enthusiast. You will obviously have to cater to a cross over market though to survive. The 911 has simply evolved with time and technology. The new 996 and 997s are great cars and much better performance wise than the older 911s even in NA or "street form."

I understand why you are trying to delineate between NA and "GT3 based," but the GT3 is more comparable from a technological standpoint to the 996 NA than a 3.2, 3.0 or 2.7 flat 6 technology.

[D Hanson]

BTW, I am not knocking older 911s. I love those cars. they are great cars and ahead of their time as far as technology. The 996 and 997 models, however, have the benefit of years and years of evolution and technological advancement so they should be better performing vehicles. 911s have gotten a bit heavy though this is probably a necessary evil given governmental restrictions and the fact that pople want 20th century creature conforms in their sports cars. If lambo and Ferrari can have a working cold blowing AC, why can't Porsche.

[Markus33]

Re:

**I understand why you are trying to delineate between NA and "GT3 based," but the GT3 is more comparable from a technological standpoint to the 996 NA than a 3.2, 3.0 or 2.7 flat 6 technology.** D Hanson

I thought the GT3 has an engine case based on the one used in the 993. If this is correct, then wouldn't it seem to be more of a direct descendant of the 3.2, 3.0, 2.7, etc. flat 6's?

Markus
'80 SC Targa

[D Hanson]

Originally posted by Markus33
Re:

**I understand why you are trying to delineate between NA and "GT3 based," but the GT3 is more comparable from a technological standpoint to the 996 NA than a 3.2, 3.0 or 2.7 flat 6 technology.** D Hanson

I thought the GT3 has an engine case based on the one used in the 993. If this is correct, then wouldn't it seem to be more of a direct descendant of the 3.2, 3.0, 2.7, etc. flat 6's?

Markus
'80 SC Targa

If you compare part for part and technology, which engine do you think will be closer to the 996 GT3, GT2, or TT engine. Certainly, not a 3.2, 3.0 or older. I doubt seriously that the 993 3.6 has more parts in common with the GT3 motor than does the 996 NA 3.6.

I am sure you can find common parts throughout all of the Porsche engines. They are flat 6s so all are arguably based on the same Porsche design. Then you could also argue dry sump, but from there the 996 motors are pretty different from the air cooleds whether the 996 motor is NA, GT3 or TT.

Really, it is an endless and pointless debate which engine is more related to which engine. The fact of the matter is that the 996 3.6 with 320 or 350 hp (in X51 form) is a great engine and more powerful than the air cooled 911 NA mass produced motors and the motor is great bang for the buck due to the massive guantities of them out there.

I am sorry I interrupted and hope you guys don't think I am knocking older stuff. Just think that sometimes people are closed minded about the newer stuff even though they really have not had much experience with the newer stuff.

You see the same arguments with Ferrari. Those with 308, 328, and 348s argue that their cars are better than the late model V8s like the 355. 360 and 430 for basically the same reasons.

[}{arlequin]

this thread has turned into a lame battle over semantics... sorry guys, that's just how it looks.

if, for some reason, someone wants to buy a 996 to make it into a track car, great. get it, post it. we'll ooh and ahhh, and tell you what we think will make it faster. or we'll point you towards TRG and help you spend your money even quicker. rip out the interior, nav (ha ha), cupholders, etc and you'll lose 200 lb... blah blah... point is, you CAN turn pretty much any car into a track car and if you think 996 platform is -easy, -fun, -fast, -reliable, -cheap etc... then go for it

i've posted a similar topic about boxsters when it dawned on me how nice and fast they can be on the track. so i had the urge to find out whether there are any that are street legal but equipped in the same manner as a 550, meaning, w/ nothing inside. get it down to 2500lbs and the boxster s would be an awesome machine. yet, there aren't too many of those out there. too bad.


ok, sorry for the interruption.

[D Hanson]

Originally posted by }{arlequin
this thread has turned into a lame battle over semantics...

You are right. Regardless, is it not rumored that the 997 GT3 motor will have a wet sump? If so, that former similarity will be gone. Is Porsche racing going to a wet sump? I thought I heard this or read this somewhere.

[jpahemi]

D Hanson:
No where did I state anything regarding a comparison between the earlier engines and the GT3 engine; looks like you're grasping at straws to support your point. Go back a few posts and show me were this comparison is made.
j.p.
PS. A 3.2 motor IS closer related to the GT3 than the street 996, no question. Check the case.
I haven't noticed any surplus of 430's lately.

[D Hanson]

Okay, whatever. Think what you like. No surplus of 997s right when they first came out either so you missed the logic or the point. I have a Ferrari and have been tracking Ferrari prices for a while, have you??? Anyway, you just want to argue and I honestly have no clue as to what you are arguing for or against so I will stop high jacking this guys thread. Ciao, baby.