SWB vs LWB: Differences?
 

Hi everyone,

I've been reading through the forum slowly over the past few months, what a site! I thought it was about time I said hello and introduced my 'car'. I say 'car' because there isn't that much of it at the moment, the previous owner cut out 98% of the rot so the good news is what I have is quite solid, the bad news is there is a lot missing! It's a '66 SWB and started life as a 912 although I'm tempted to drop something like a 3.0 / 3.2 in it as I didn't get the engine with it anyway.
It's been sat in my garage over here in the UK for over 10 years and I feel the time has come to do something with it. I will get pics posted as I uncover the various parts from storage in the near future but one area I am a little uncertain of is what were the differences between SWB and LWB shells, apart from the obvious rear wing, swing arm and spring plate changes. I've read somewhere that the rear torsion bar tube may be different? I would really like to go LWB if possible (I already have later arms and spring plates etc), welding is one of my strong points (luckily!) so if it's possible then I think a '73 RS style is what I would go for.
Would appreciate any comments from all you guys that know a lot more that I do.

Regards

Neil

Neil, SWB hotrods are the new RS clones.

2 perfect examples
http://granitehead.smugmug.com/photo...55_Vwek8-L.jpg

Converting a SWB to a LWB is a major undertaking, plus, the world would have one less SWB car. But then, I'm bias.

Good luck with whatever direction you go!

Why would anybody want a hotrod swb? ;)


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1245090702.jpg

I love those No-Gruppe cars.

cuz they like to spin out and twirl around

A 912 SWB with a hot rod 4 cylinder (type 4 or 912) is the way to go in this car, The weight that is not present in the rear of these cars really makes them handle well. Combine this with lightweight and 200 Hp and you will have quite the car. SWB cars are getting harder to find and there are some of us would like to see the remaining ones stay short. It is however your car ......

There aren't too many 200 HP 4 bangers around. By the time one wrung 200 reliable ponies from a 2 liter 4 (much less a 1600), he could have a variety of options for the same cost.

Aside from the obvious wheel base differences, the fenders are different. Less flare on the SWB if you want to even call the wheel arch "flared."

Thanks for the comments and the pics guys, keep them coming. The main reasons for looking at a LWB conversion are better handling (debatable?) and also I don't have any rear fenders of any description at the moment and I suspect later LWB ones will be easier to source than SWB ones. Plus I already have some LWB rear arms and spring plates so that's a couple of things less to buy. I think to be honest it's too far gone to put it back to original without spending a mountain of cash so I was looking for a slightly cheaper but ultimately just as rewarding option.
If anyone has a good idea of the torsion tube differences I would be interested to find out.

Regards

Neil Jackson

Why and wherefore are there SWB and LWB P-cars? Sorry for my ignorance, but I'm new to the Porsche legacy. Is there something online that I can read about these variations?

piscator

Frere's book - Porsche 911 will be your best source

The original 911 was the "SWB" type. Porsche KG (now an AG) did various things to try and fix some very bad handling traits. They put lead wts. in the front bumpers, they moved the battery around and split to a 2 battery system, they worked on adjustable upper shock (strut) mounts, and they lengthened the wheelbase, resulting in the monikers SWB and LWB.

I prefer the handling of the SWB 911, with modern tires and shocks these cars make great track cars and are not to bad on the street.

Let's not forget that the demonic handling of the SWB 911 in the early years was associated with 165/15 Firestone Phoenix Tires. It's amazing what wider, modern compound tires can accomplish.

That said, "unsafe at any speed" was published around that time and the factory took advantage of the time-honored maxim of Torts that "evidence of subsequent remedial measures is not admissible to prove defects of design in products liability cases." Hence:

Cast-iron weights in the front bumper (1966)
Wider track (1968)
Front suspension that was actually adjustable (late 1965)
Revised alignment settings (1966)
Revised springplate bushings (1967)
Revised front crossmember and A-arms (1968)
Larger front antiroll bar (increased from 13mm pencil bar) (1967)
Fuchs wheels for less unsprung weight vs. steel wheels (1967)
Rear antiroll bar (196?)

Finally they gave up in 1969 and ended up with:

Flared fenders for wider tires (185/15)
Longer wheelbase
Dual batteries way up front and outboard (there is NO electrical reason for this, it's a weight thing)
Revised front suspension design (different balljoints and crossmember)

That didn't solve it, in 1974 they went to enormous aluminum bumpers and a single battery
1989 coil spring suspension and radically different suspension design
1995 even more radically different suspension design
1999 end of original 901 design. New 996 design debuts with engine in same location!

...and a yet longer wheelbase ;)

very thorough John

you left out sPASM for the most recent cars is all...

So how many SWB vs LWB races were won :confused: What was the score -- that will tell the real difference SmileWavy

not really - the competition changed too

Exactly. Porsche changed/competition changed. How did the SWB vs LWB fare against the competition.

Hi Neil
I just changed my car to LWB. After asking many people about the differences here is my findings. There are people out there that installs lwb trailing arms into swb cars and they say it works fine. (the one is a reeputable porsche specialist). I say Bull S
The SWB mount on the torsion bar sit in the center of the hole for the trailing arm where the LWB sits futher back and off to the side. In my opinion you will struggle to get the wheels to run straight if you place LWB arm in SWB mounts. You are working with a triangle and not doing it right you are getting the angle out.
What I did is bought a piece out of a rust bucket, cut of the LWB mounts made a jig from another LWB car and then welded in my LWB mounts. I include a pic of where the mouns sit on LWB SWB and Carrerahttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1245349660.jpg

leonpotgieter,

Thanks so much for the info and the pic, that is exactly what I needed to know. Nothing too difficult then, I just need to source a scrap LWB donor car and cut off the mounts to graft them on to mine. Another thing to add to my shopping list!
Thanks again

Regards

Neil

I realize this is an old thread, I am trying to understand your explanation. If you were going to remove the SWB mounts and move them to the correct location where would that be? I ask because I am in the middle of a conversion on a car that has no torsion tube at all right now. the plan was originally to do an a-arm rear suspension but thanks to two fellow Pelicanites I received some Long wheelbase swing. these with some 935 coilovers could be combined to jump-start my rear suspension. I just need to where the rear arm mounts are in relation to the existing mounts.

Wow, A-arm rear suspension sounds cool! :)

I was referring to a complete 993 rear suspension. I picked up a parts car to use to repair my '96. I was going to take the plunge but that may have taken all summer to set up. I saw somewhere on this forum where it had been done

Still sounds like an interesting upgrade. :)

Bump on this.

May I add that next week i am buying a 912 (69 hence lwb but...) that has a 993 6sp gbox and a 964 engine, but the "interesting" bit is that it also has complete 964 rear suspension without torsion bars, but coilovers and 964 arms instead.

I ll keep you posted

I'm sorry to dig up this old thread. But I'm curious.
So, aside from the flares, are there any differences in the body between SWB and LWB? is it all simply in the suspension?

There are lots of other differences besides. I don't own a SWB and I'm sure I don't know the half of it but here's what I can think of off the top of my head.

Single battery on driver's side (vs. two battery boxes).
Front bumper weights
Different front bumper mounts on tub?
Early SWB cars didn't have adjustable strut towers
I think the shape of the sheet metal 'shelf' behind the fuel tank is quite different (the fuse panel is up there too).
Vents inside cabin at front inner longitudinals
Rear shelf is ribbed
One-piece knee guard (in lieu of two plus ash tray)
Copper window frames
Four-hole grills (196?)
Engine lid/grill
Rear vented windows
Seat belts?
Tail lights and buckets


I'm thinking I've not scratched the surface here but I've run out of ideas.

Hey! You have one! Lucky guy :)

Tim K

Hi guys, quick question. Are the front wings on a LWB car the same as an SWB?

No. Different turn signal boxes.

And different shaped horn grills.

912/6 tr
 

here are some photos of swb, i guess one is a factory modified model (TR), cars that have been flared in the rear perhaps using modified SC flares...? looks like there were no conversions in the rear TBs as the access holes are still in the same place. i'm tempted to go this route on my 912/6 with a 3.2 but will keep my old fenders in case i'd want to go back to stock someday. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1656334262.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1656334262.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1656334262.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1656334262.jpg

Many thanks. My wings are rusted and i cant seem to find good SWB wings, only LWB and they look so similar.

I bought my SWB wings from Delaware Porsche Parts. Real Porsche sheet metal. Almost wholesale prices.

I have seen some went the path of cutting the entire torsion bar tube out. This sounds like a lot of work, but what would be the benefit of going that route, as opposed to welding LWB brackets on your SWB torque tube?

I'm not sure which path he took here as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rmwvs3EKzbQ&t=840s

Just checking if anyone knows.

SWB is a **** ton of fun. No reason to convert it to a LWB unless you want to build an RSR or something. My 68 with a mild 2.8 twin plug is one of the most fun cars I have ever owned.

If I were going to convert one to a LWB I would put it on a celette bench and install new trailing arm pick up moutns make sure the trailing arm pick up points were in the right place. I wouldn't replace the torsion tube unless it showed any damage which is quite possible. (ask me how I know)

If you want a hand full to drive in the limit, SWB is that! A friend has a ‘65 912-6 with a RS spec 2.7L that I’ve auto crossed. The steering wheel is never straight, even on the straightaways, lots of fun.

There are some durability and braking reasons particularly on larger tires that LWB makes more sense but as a fun car on skinny tire, SWB isn’t a bad thing!

Mine moves around quite a lot when flogging it on the track but on Avon CR6ZZ 185/70 it has enough grip. With a properly set up suspension and KAAZ LSD, it is extremely predictable. Mine has Alfa brakes up front and M calipers on the back. …quite adequate

I once had the opportunity to ask none other than Monte Carlo rally winner “quick Vic” Elford what difference he felt when Porsche extended the wheel base in 69, his response was priceless “they changed the wheel base?” If this guy didn’t even notice the change I doubt it we would🤣
I have both SWB and LWB cars, the difference is marginal, simply not worth the time expense, or loss of a low number SWB.