Calling All Mid Year Experts - Value Opinions on 74/75 911S

[t6dpilot]

All CIS cars had a green engine shroud, right? What the heck is this pump aparatus on the left side of the engine? Anybody recognize that?

[Tooth911]

Scott the only thing i would consider is the 77 911 has the galvanized body. Mine is a 77 but far from original.Ive owned it sence 1999 and is now more track car than street i didnt really plan it that way just happened.Basically a hotrod with 2.8l 22k on total rebuild 9.5cr JEs E cams intakes ported to 37mm webers .RSR struts tarett sways.2250 lbs and very fun to drive.I will be selling sometime in the future and searching for a 993.Rex glad to hear from you cheers Chuck

[ossiblue]

Originally Posted by t6dpilot

All CIS cars had a green engine shroud, right? What the heck is this pump aparatus on the left side of the engine? Anybody recognize that?

That's the "smog pump" which pumps air into the tubes that are screwed into the exhaust ports to further combustion of exhaust gas.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by t6dpilot

Good discussion here. My opinion is that these cars still carry some of the early 911 traits (lighter weight, bright window trim, narrow body, ect) that make them a desireable generation (relatively speaking here) to certain buyers. Some people would say, why buy a middie when you can get a better performing SC or Carrera. Well, there is a butt for every seat. Some appreciate the middies for reasons like what I listed above. Others will hate them for their underpowered and problematic engine reputation.

Regarding originality, I believe that a car that is really and original car in superb condition would trump all others with mods or restored (not all maybe, but most) no matter what the make and model. I know we are talking about the low end of the spectrum here, but I think if you look at auction results, they probably support that theory - maybe. Whoops, just open another can of worms with that statement....

I think the reason that many of us like the middies is that they were/are inexpensive enough and unloved enough where we do not hesitate to slap in a higher perf engine with the very low effective gear of the 7:31 tranny combined with the 15 inch wheels and light weight to get a super quick car. No one wants to "violate" an early car.

[ossiblue]

Originally Posted by fintstone

I think the reason that many of us like the middies is that they were/are inexpensive enough and unloved enough where we do not hesitate to slap in a higher perf engine with the very low effective gear of the 7:31 tranny combined with the 15 inch wheels and light weight to get a super quick car. No one wants to "violate" an early car.

+1...especially the "violate an early car" part!

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by Tooth911

Scott the only thing i would consider is the 77 911 has the galvanized body...

Depends on where you live. I would never consider any middie after '74 unless it was "track only" because that is the last year they are emission exempt here. Basically the same car....otherwise. There are plenty of rustfree examples out west if you look. Many have lived their entire life garaged and pampered. I have owned two myself that had no rust at all.

[Winter]

I don't have anything to compare it to, as it's my first P-car, but I've been really happy with my targa. It's a driver for sure, and will never be a show car and unlikely to become collectible, but it was a relatively affordable way to enter into the Porsche experience. And if it gets beat up or scratched, it's not a big deal, as it's not some fully restored early S car.

I think the middies are a good option if you are looking for a driver. That doesn't mean I don't drool over some of the pre-'74 cars that some on this forum own. But ownership of one of them is most likely down the road for me. Or maybe not, depending upon my enjoyment of the '75. Please note, though, that my car has an earlier 2.2 engine with carbs. I'd say that finding a middy with the 2.7 issues already addressed is important. Not from my experience, mind you, but from reading this forum.

----

Tom '75 targa

[t6dpilot]

Smog pump, yes that is what I thought. It was my uneducated understanding that the smog pump was only supplied on CA cars, not on the 49 state versions. Please correct me if I am wrong. If you removed it, would you gain any performance, other than weight savings.

[cbush]

As a point of reference to answer your question, I recently bought a 75 S for a little over $9K. It will take at least another $5K to get it in really good condition. So I think between $10-15K for a decent reliable car, and up for an exceptional car. Sure the middies have their warts, but with a little TLC I think it will be a great car, and I really like their looks. They are also still easy enough to work on yourself.

[t6dpilot]

Can anyone answer my question about the smog equipment? Was that supplied only on CA cars or did the 49 state cars have that also?

[911st]

Originally Posted by cbush

As a point of reference to answer your question, I recently bought a 75 S for a little over $9K. It will take at least another $5K to get it in really good condition. So I think between $10-15K for a decent reliable car, and up for an exceptional car. Sure the middies have their warts, but with a little TLC I think it will be a great car, and I really like their looks. They are also still easy enough to work on yourself.

Porsche math is not $9+$5=$14k.

It is more like $9+$5=$9.5k.

In my case is is more like $13k plus $11k = $13.5k.

Or $11k + $30k = $17k.

And, $40k + $7k = $31k.

Lets put it this way. Most $7k mids are going to cost about $20k. So it is better to buy a more expensive one as it will cost less.

[ossiblue]

Originally Posted by t6dpilot

Can anyone answer my question about the smog equipment? Was that supplied only on CA cars or did the 49 state cars have that also?

The smog pump was on all mid-year car, it was the dreaded thermal reactors in 75 that were only on Ca. cars. Removing the pump and adjunct plumbing will not affect performance--neither gain nor loss. You can just remove the pump and leave the under engine plumbing to the exhaust ports as there is a check valve that will prevent exhaust gas from being blown back into the engine compartment. If you decide to remove all plumbing to the ports, there are plugs (sold by Pelican) that screw into the heads once the piping is removed.

[unclebilly]

I don't know if this has been said or not but a 76 or 77 might be a better bet. Same look but more likely to be rust free because these car are galvanized whereas the 74s and 75s are not.

In some ways the 77 is a bit better becasue it has the SC tranaxle. The 74 is noce because it has lower gearing so it is quicker off the line.

My suggestion would be a 77 with back dated exhaust, an 11 blade fan and possibly a carerra cooler.

My 77 has 180k+ miles on it. The engine was rebuilt at 80k miles and I did a top end rebuild on it this spring - it didn't need the rebuild, I wanted more power so I added 9.5: 1 pistons, DC40 cams, webers, an RS curve dist. I added the backdated exhaust and 11 blade previously. The car did another 75 - 80k miles on it after the first rebuild WITH the thermal reactors and the 5 blade fan. The studs were not pulled and I ran them again.

The head stud problem is way over stated, certainly not as bad as the counterbalance shaft problem on 3.4L 996s and early boxsters.

[t6dpilot]

Thanks for the info Curt. Exactly what I was lookoing for. Totally agree with that Porsche math too. Question for tool experts - what kind of wrenches were used for these years? I have seen other than Selected Steel or were those the only kind used?

[Grady Clay]

I have been around these cars since new. The ’74-’77 ‘Mid-Year’ are great cars. As everyone knows, they were delivered with some notable shortcomings - most able to be addressed with common upgrades.

Specifically:

The 2.7 engine reached the limit of temperature and cylinder stud attachment in the crankcase. The
‘75-’77 5-blade fan, thermal reactor exhaust (particularly the CA and ’77 versions) and the lack of standard front oil cooler lead to the problems.

This is the period of transition to the completely galvanized body. While very important, we all now realize that you can have an intact galvanized body with many other components rusted to unusable. The key is having a 911 never exposed to corrosive conditions. Crash damage repair can negate any advantage of the galvanizing.

During these years there were also many subtle changes, mostly (but not all) for the better. Starting in ’74 was the vastly improved front oil cooler system. The shortcoming was in the choices of front cooler designs (until fan on Carrera coolers) but the plumbing is still state-of-the-art.

There were strengthening in the transmission but, as time has proved, the lack of a steel insert for the primary transmission bearings has been problematic.

The ‘bean counters’ forced a poor decision using the 100 mm 923 CV joints starting in ’76 and continued through the 911SCs.

There are more.

The good news is these are still lightweight cars but with vast improvements in structural integrity in a crash. These are very crash-worthy cars when some idiot runs into you. You get to walk away uttering expletives. This is something to consider if you want a long-hood appearing 911.

The really good news is these cars are ideal platforms for building your ‘dream’ 911 on a reasonable budget. That can be a ‘stock appearing’ driver, a hot-rod, a racer and back-dated and up-dated body conversions.

I like a ‘sorta-stock appearing’ street hot-rod. The classic “Wolf In Sheep’s Clothing” as much as a 911 can be. It is the outrageous acceleration pull to redline in 3rd or 4th that is the dead giveaway.

I would choose a ’74 for emissions compliance (lack of regulatory requirements). While a well-repaired 2.7 is a great lightweight engine, a larger displacement engine (3.0, 3.2 and larger) is the best for street.

Choice of body configuration is a very personal thing. At minimum, I would allow for SC-like larger rear tires & wheels.

I would use the mag transmission, short gears but 8-tooth pinion, LSD, 108 mm CV joints and all the WEVO improvements.

Suitable-for-track suspension can still be reasonably comfortable on the street. That is lowered suspension, larger torsion and sway bars, real suspension bearings and appropriate shock valving.

Choice of tires can be the most important decision. I have Michelin Pilot Sport Plus, 215/55ZR16 on 7x16 Fuchs and 245/50ZR16 on 8x16 Fuchs. This is a great combination for an SC or Carrera and appropriate for a Mid-Year 911 or 911S with Carrera rear fenders.

SO….
What to do?

Like any responsible recommendation, buy the best example possible. Pay ‘top dollar’ if necessary. Do not buy a rusty or previously damages and ‘fixed’ one. Investigate the history. Complete provenance is worth a lot.

An un-molested example may command a high price – someday. Having the ability to make a 911 exactly as you want is priceless. Mid-year 911s are great candidates for this as generally depressed prices allow you more choices with ‘rejuvenation’.

Best,
Grady

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by unclebilly

... 76 or 77 ... are galvanized whereas the 74s and 75s are not.
...

Not so. I have tried to put this myth to rest innumerable times, so do a search to get the real story.

Briefly, there is an incremental increase in the # of body panels that used Thyssen steel every year, starting early 1970s and complete shell occurs with the SCs.

see Grady's response above.

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally Posted by RWebb

Not so. I have tried to put this myth to rest innumerable times, so do a search to get the real story.

Briefly, there is an incremental increase in the # of body panels that used Thyssen steel every year, starting early 1970s and complete shell occurs with the SCs.

see Grady's response above.

Dr. Webb is correct,...

I'd also remember that galvanized coatings are intended to be sacrificial and do not last forever, depending on environmental conditions. This is why Porsche limits their body warranty to 10 years.

As Grady said, condition trumps everything else,...

[ael911]

Originally Posted by JTO

When I have the privilege of building another 911 there are two things I am sure of: it will be based on a mid-year car and Steve Weiner will be heavily involved.

Troy

Well I suppose I will chime in and give my .02 cents on the middies. I bought my '75 Silver Anniversary #164 from Troy (JTO) in late 2005. A quick background about me first. I saw Troy's car at a PCA event in Nor Cal. I was brand new to the Porsche scene and I owned a 2001 996 that had some mild suspension goodies. I thought my 996 was a great car, that was until I saw Troy's '75 911S.

Although I didn't know Troy was selling his car until I returned home from the trip and I never even spoke a word with Troy during the entire weekend, I did have the opportunity to see his car perform on the various driving tours I participated on. I could not believe how agile and compliant Troy's car looked as I followed him through the wonderful back roads of Sonoma and Napa. The 2.7 also made sounds I have never heard before.

When I found out he was selling his car, I had to have it. So I pretty much gave Troy his asking price. At the time, I know I was paying the higher end spectrum for a mid-year car (nearly $16K), but Troy's car had everything I could ask for; complete suspension upgrade, a rust free chasis, fresh rebuilt motor and trans with all the 2.7 ailments addressed, and the rarity of the Silver Anniversary model. With that, the cost of Troy's car was still about 50% less than a comprable long hood.

Well, after I took ownership, I became so fanatical by the mid-year car that I decided to sell my 996. The 996 felt so heavy and was boring compared to the nimble and agile '75. The 996 soon became a garage queen. Every time I had an opportunity to drive, the '75 was top choice.

It's been 3 years and 30k+ miles since I took the keys from Troy, and the '75 is still running in top shape. Only once did a bad coil left me stranded on the side of the road in those 30k miles. All I have done mechanically to the car is regular oil changes and valve adjustments (self-taught from this forum). I love this car to death and it has been the best car I have ever owned in my 20+ years as a licensed driver.

So, in addressing the original post, I must agree a middle year car in good shape is a total undervalued gem. These cars have so much potential and if the motor issues have been addressed, these cars are very robust, reliable, and a ton of fun to drive due to their light weight. Side by side, my neighbor's '87 930 feels like a tank when I compare it to my '75. I concur with Steve as I have also noticed that the middle year cars are becoming more and more scarce nowadays as fine examples are far and few to be found for sale.

And finally, in my state, the 74 and 75s are smog exempt and therefore can still greatly benefit in the induction/exhaust department. I had Steve Weiner set me up with set of PMOs and the carbs instantly opened a dimension of the 2.7 that was not evident with the CIS. The sounds the quick reving 2.7 and carbs makes at redline is euphoric. Everytime I drive this car, I can't help but smile. Thanks to Troy and Steve for all the hard work they have put into this machine.
Andrew

[fryardds]

Scott, how did the hypothetical car drive and look?

I too am a fan of the mid-year 911, specifically the MFI Carrera 2.7. These are absolutlely fantastic cars and a blast to drive.

[t6dpilot]

Originally Posted by fryardds

Scott, how did the hypothetical car drive and look?

I have no idea what you are talking about.