Another point: It seems that the Cup cars vent their reservoir through a hole in the top of the cap. To keep the top of the reservoir clean, the owners wrap that area with a paper towel (usually the blue kind) held on with a rubber band. This keeps the small amount of fluid from leaving the immediate vicinity.

And on my track only car, with dual MCs mounted low and aftermarket reservoirs mounted high, I never loose any fluid. Pulls even more Gs than the SC. Those reservoirs are the kind with a black rubber bellows inside, so basically the fluid is never exposed to air, or at least has a lot lower exposed surface. They vent from the inside (dry side) of the bellows to the atmosphere. These would solve the power brake overflow issues if they could be made to fit, I think. But these are round and taller. I can run for several years with this setup without having to touch anything beyond changing pads.

I never did understand why on earth Porsche vented the brake reservoir to the atmosphere, when US manufacturers had been using the rubber bellows method since the 60's, and possibly earlier. Makes zero sense, except that Germans always know best, even when they don't.

Based on comments on the prior page - that drilling a hole in the top of the cap works - I'd think some small diameter copper tubing pushed through the plastic nipple so the vent point ends up in the center of the reservoir should work.

There is appropriately sized copper tubing available at FLAPS - the nipple on my reservoir broke off, and I used such tubing to splice it all together again. It was just a light press fit, holds pressure for power bleeder and otherwise works dandy. Even spills quarts of brake fluid when I forget to clamp the vent line.

I pulled an old reservoir, from my pre-power assist days, from my storage clutter. The kind which mounted on the left inner fender well chassis. Lo and behold, its overflow/air admittance orfice faces the rear of the car!

Can I mount this one where the power assist goes? No, it would stick up too high, things point the wrong way, maybe if I changed out the short hoses and fabricated a bracket it could. Besides, it was getting brittle, and the overflow nipple had broken off so it would need repair. One of the pictures shows how it is configured, though. I think it would be possible to use the old reservoir and mounting, and use longer hoses to connect to the master cylinder.

How about just turning the stock power assist reservoir 90 degrees? Well, that runs into the same general issues about bumping into the vacuum pan and hose lengths and hood clearance. But with enough effort and modification I suppose it could be made to work with a modified bracket and hoses. Though the angle of the hose outlets on the non-power reservoir could make this tricky..

How about I use my pressure bleeder cap, which is a stock cap with a tire nipple coming out the top - just pull the Schraeder valve and attach a hose? Well, the issue here is clearance from the hood. There isn't enough. And I didn't have anything to make a right angle screw-on cap with. With something like that and using a super short tire nipple, perhaps this would work.

Ok, off to the junk box (actually a bunch of those plastic drawers where I try to keep nuts and bolts and smallish parts in some semblance of order). What't this - a nice 90 degree sort of fitting. Don't know where it came from, but at one time its function for me was to spray water onto the top of the engine oil cooler - a Mazda oil cooler mounted in the center of the front valance did away with the need for this.

As an added bonus, the cap has a sort of disk like cover inside over the center of the cap, which snaps on. It has a couple of small holes in it. When removed, there is a dimple in the exact center of the cap, which is under a center protrusion on the top outside of the cap. The dimple is ideal for centering the hole to be drilled. And the little cover forms a small space, with the little holes restricting what comes into or goes out of this - perhaps it will reject slosh, but allow air in and out as needed.

To make absolutely sure I didn't have clearance issues, I sank the reservoir down into its mounting. Bend the metal strap some and rebend, and use a longer bolt. Might not have been necessary, but I didn't want to try to get in the trunk and close the lid on myself to see, and couldn't figure out how to use my boresccope.

So here is the result.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1345577313.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1345577347.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1345577384.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1345577416.jpg

At some point I may bestir myself to create a more elegant method of holding the catch bottle. But I know this works, so that may be quite a while as such things go.

It will be mid-September before we get the car back on the track to see how well or poorly this works. Given that these problems never happened with the car and driver in pre-power assist mode, and at one point I used slicks on the car, I am inclined to think that it is the position of the air inlet/overflow which causes this to be a problem for those of us who track or autocross the cars.

Fact is, our cars will brake just fine with no fluid in the reservoir, as long as there is still some in the line. No reserve for pad wear there, or to deal with a little leakage from a wheel piston seal, etc. But in the short term you don't need a full reservoir. So at some point you can reduce the level to the point where eveh high G cornering isn't going to lead to fluid being pushed out.

But I just feel better with a full, or nearly full, reservoir while on the track or at an autocross.

Very nice Walt. I don't face the issue you do. But you've made me wonder if I should move my catch bottle up much closer to the reservoir from its present position below next to the fuel cell. Hmmm..

I used a fuel tank for an RC airplane. I attached the small tank to the booster by taping a hard drive magnet to the plastic tank and just sticking it to the booster. But now for the fun part. I had this arrangment on two cars an 84 and 85 both would throw fluid when driven very hard at the track or autocross. They were fine when driven on the street. Replaced master cylinder and surprise no more loss of brake fluid. I too thought it was my astounding g-forces causing the issue but it appears the master cylinder was the true cause. If the master cylinder is the original the cups inside are likely getting hard and under severe braking are allowing pressure to bleed back into the res tank. Mine did not leak out of the master cylinder which would obviously indicate a problem. Side effect brakes are much better with the new master cylinder less front lockup. The way the master cylinder is designed there are two cups up front and one for the rear. The front has two cups to separate the front from the rear. The double cups appear to hold pressure better and again under severe braking the rear appears to bleed off internally.

Anyhow there ya go........

Here is my set-up two AP reservoirs without issues:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1345619250.jpg

Unrelated to this thread but always brings a smile - how often have you heard:

ONLY USE BRAKE FLUID FROM A SEALED or UNOPENED CONTAINER!!!!!!

yet the brake fluid resevoir is vented to the atmosphere :-)

Chuck.H
'89 TurboLookTarga, 338k miles

On most cars the brake system is sealed with an expanding bellows sealing the top of the resevoir. I would assume that Porsche has compensated for this by either increasing the frequency of recommended fluid changes or there just isn't enough of an opening to let in that much moisture.
If you don't believe that brake fluid will absorb moisture from the air fill a bottle to the top and let it sit. In a short time it will be overflowing.

This brake bleeder jar from HF fits right onto the factory overflow tube. However, the built-in magnet is a little wimpy - might dislodge at 1 G. :-)
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1345659541.jpg

Add a stronger magnet
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1345660848.jpg

Sherwood

I'll say it again ---

When you are tracking your Porsche take out some brake fluid
so it doesn't overflow.

We race a 1978 Porsche and use the overflow bottle -- but we also
only run with a half filled reservoir when cold - this reduces the overflow
significantly. When the brake fluid heats up and expands it then has about a full
reservoir.

Other results may vary...

Regards,http://forums.pelicanparts.com/suppo...s/beerchug.gif

I'll believe the "fluid expands when hot and causes overflows" theory when someone does the calculations. Somewhere there must be a coefficient of thermal expansion for generic brake fluids. Which is not to say that keeping the fluid level down to half or so may not help control overflow no matter how caused. Would help with expansion, and should help with reverse flows from the MC - what gets pushed up when it shouldn't has to drain back down to refil the MC when brakes are released.

For me, the key fact is that with my fender side reservoir mount and non-power MC I never had any such issues. See how Sherwood's reservoir vents to the rear?

The failing MC seal effect is certainly real. In my case, the MC is but five or so years old, so that is not at the top of my list. However, if the rerouting of the overflow does not stop overflowing (and keeping the level lower as a next step) doesn't solve this, I guess it is MC rebuild time. Maybe the ATE MCs of today are not like those of the '70s?

Many race cars have setups that vent to a tube that eventually dumps out the bottom of the car. Mine does. I never see any fluid in the tube though....

Scott

And I think that is the way it ought to be. But when it isn't, the question is why and what to do.

Better to contain any waste fluids within the chassis, yes? The guy with the nice paint in back of you might appreciate you not sharing extra BF.

Sherwood

Next time you are at the track, take a look at all the cars that vent out the bottom of the car. Let me know how it goes when you tell them to change their setup.

Scott

No problem Scott. I'll just have the NASA scrutineer do it for me! Thanks for the heads up.

-Andy

Andy,

I don't see anything in the NASA CCR or tech inspection documents that says you have to vent the brake fluid reservoir or, if you do vent it, where it can or cannot vent to. I couldn't find anything about in the PCA documents either. Would you please point me to where this is documented by NASA or PCA?

Mat built my car this way and Rich thoroughly tech'ed it and it passed just fine.

You do realize that many of the street and race cars you might encounter at a track day or DE event vent the brake fluid reservoir out under the car too, don't you?

I just think a small amount of brake fluid venting to the ground is a non issue.

Scott

Yeah, I'm going to do that. That's up to the race stewards and track rules. Whether they do so or not or whether the rules allow it, it's still not ideal. Do they allow coolant to vent to the ground too? How about oil leaks or venting crankcase pressure? Is this the James Bond car chase series?

FWIW, BF is corrosive and an excellent paint remover.

Sherwood

i fashioned a bracket out of thin alloy sheeting that uses the same bolts as the reservoir. stuck a brake fluid bottle in it for the overflow.
no way am i letting it dribble onto the track, would get reamed..
http://i.imgur.com/cgIIF.jpg?1

saw this pic... could of sworn that my 996 was not vented, but maybe it is. Hard to tell from all that covering over the reservoir...


http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...r-img_2810.jpg

Sherwood,

I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. The small amount of brake fluid that might vent onto the track is not going to go airborne and land on the paint of the car behind it. It is going to stay on the track and will not cause any problems. We are talking, at most, drops at time.

Coolant does get vented to the ground often which is one reason why they don't allow anything but water or water with something like Red Line Water Wetter in radiators. The quantity is a lot more than you would ever see with brake fluid.

Gasoline gets vented to the ground.

Scott

If gravity acts as you describe, then why is there often a film of engine oil and other fluids on the windscreen and front end of race cars? Oil is more viscous than BF too.

I'm making a point that all fluids should be contained with catch can reservoirs and should be kept within the confines of a race vehicle. It's a safety thing. If NASA, AMA, IRL, MotoGP or F1 allow it, so be it.

... from the NASA pro racing website:
11.4.4
"There should be no fluid leaks from the engine. A radiator overflow of at least one-liter capacity should be used. Oil breathers or vents shall return the oil to the engine or shall terminate in a catch tank of at least one-liter. All hoses carrying fluids should be in good condition with no cracks or other damage."

Sounds like the intent of the regs is to prevent fluids from causing a safety hazard. YMMV.

Sherwood

I unintentionally misled you.

I just checked the routing of the brake fluid reservoir vent line in my race car. It does not actually come out underneath the car as I thought. It is a 3 1/2 foot long tube that is always above the reservoir and terminates in an opening located above and behind the right front wheel well.

So, the tube has enough capacity to handle any overflow that might happen and has gravity working it its favor. If it did overflow, it would most likely make a small mess in the aforementioned opening. The fluid couldn't go anywhere else.

Regardless, I am unaware of any rules that say you cannot have the brake fluid reservoir vent out the bottom of the car on to the ground. If they exist, I would like to see them.

Sherwood: A few drops of brake fluid on the track is a not a safety hazard. That is why the rule books don't specifically call out brake fluid reservoir venting.

Scott

Scott,
Granted, the NASA regs don't address BF spillage. Unsure about other race regs. As I said, BF is corrosive. If you don't mind even a few drops landing on your chassis or suspension or those behind you, up to you. Carry on.

Sherwood

question? I mentioned earlier that a new master cylinder eliminated the leakage problem I had. Can anyone confirm that they have replaced the master cylinder and still have the same issue of fluid going out the vent.

Given that the small reservoirs pre-87 are prone to drawdown/spitting fluid, i'd argue that the amount being expelled by a lot of DE "racers" is pretty substantial. Consider that a lot of these people bleed their brakes quite frequently and therefore top it off quite frequently. Since the factory routing is a straight run of hose & tubing, not a large loop of hose which is indeed a nice catch system (I have this on my fuel cell vent hose), I think a good portion of that fluid is a straight dump on the ground.

I don't have a direct comparison of master cylinder replacement. But I think your observation is a good one. My comparision is my 87 car which has gone thru various stages of brake fiddling. One change was a brand new 930 master cylinder. That reservoir was admittedly vented as factory but I never had any problems with the reservoir level dropping at all, even when freshly topped off. The 79 car started out with the small reservoir on it and its level dropped just like everybody else's- vented to a catch bottle. I just left the level at 1/2 full based on others' similar experiences

I recently switched to the later G50 reservoir and it didn't fix the problem. I left the catch bottle on there because I think it's good practice to have that means of collection- for track protection or bonehead protection (when I forget to clamp off the vent hose during bleeding). The catch bottle had a bit of fluid in it after my last race event. Less than with the older reservoir. So I think you're onto something with the master cylinder since my '79 master is an old 930 unit.

SC Overflow Defeated
 

OK - I am now convinced that the cause of fluid loss from the reservoirs of SCs (and 3.2s, if they are set up the same) is due to the position of the breather/overflow of the reservoir. Since it points out the left side, on hard right hand corners on a race track, fluid is going to be expelled from the reservoir. This seems to be the nearly universal experience, and guys with these cars are constantly checking, and from time to time refilling, their reservoirs.

I made this modificaton, so the breather exits the top.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1348121115.jpg

Wife and I ran hard for two days this past weekend with this setup. Spilled nary a drop. I should fabricate a more elegant holder for my low buck (no buck?) catch can.

Since the pre-power brake 911s didn't have this problem, I attribute that to the fact that their reservoirs (one shown in picture) vented to the rear. Mighty as our engines are, we don't develope the Gs going forward that we can braking or cornering.

On a different note, not having any Hawk Blue pads with enough material left, I decided to run a new set of Mintex street pads. Bad decision - fronts were worn to metal before end of weekend (one pad, others almost), and rears were down to a mm or so. I wonder if Textars or Jurids would wear equally as fast?

But no fluid issues.

All I know is new mc leak went away

I think it is simply a case of the fluid making it into and out of the reservoir vent from sloshing around. There's no pathway for the fluid to return. 2 suggestions:

Run a lower fluid level and investigate making a better baffle.

Change reservoirs.

For example, a motorcycle reservoir has a rubber accordian between the fluid and the lid. When fluid is displaced, the accordian moves, but it always acts as a barrier to prevent the fluid from reaching the vent hole. I would imagine there is a reservoir available from one of the brake manufacturers (Brembo, AP, etc) that might work better in competition. Using two reservoirs is also a possiblity.

JR

Guys, the solution is very easy. Create a small vent hole in the cap and clamp off the overflow tube (or remove it and cap the nipple). See post 39. Cover the cap with a pretty rag if you want, but I have never lost fluid out of the cap. There is no more moisture exposure this way than with the stock arrangement.

In my case the air rushing through the open brake duct hole of my new FG bumper and past the end of the overflow tube directly behind the hole created a venturi effect that sucked the fluid out of the MC much faster than the usual sloshing and dripping. In one 20 minute session at Mosport I lost 50% of the fluid. The mess under my car downwind of the vent tube was massive. I made my modification in the paddock, and it has been 100 % fine ever since, so I've never felt the need for anything more fancy or complicated.

I have a follow up question to this excellent thread. I want to know the exact routing of the brake fluid overflow tube. This is for a 1981 SC. I know it goes out the right of the reservoir, around the back of it via a clamp, then routes to the fender or tub on the right side of the compartment, then down into the wheel well, then to the front of the car.

But, I have not been able to locate the hole in the body that it goes through. The reason I care is because my hose is probably the original and I have cracked it (due to pinching it) with the crack being between the reservoir and body. I'd like to replace this hose but I can't see exactly where it goes through the body.

This is on a race car and there are many extra thick wires there for the electric cut off switch which is mounted back there behind the brake fluid reservoir. Is the through-body spot supposed to be easy to see and reach?

I found the answer in this thread:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/605293-help-brake-fluid-overflow-line.html

Bumping this old thread as I've been having the same issue, brake fluid escaping from the vent on hard right turns. After a spirited drive I'll notice a wet spot on the ground in front of the left front tire, just below the brake fluid vent exit.

My vent was 'incorrectly' routed from the res, directly left to the inner fender, then forward and out. I noticed on the PET that there is a metal clip that should secure the vent line in a flat 'U turn' behind the res. Not having the clip (and neither does Pelican) I used a solder iron to melt two holes in the res upper lip and zip tied the vent into a flat 'U turn'.

Will report back in a week or so if there is an improvement. Also, notice the height of my brake fluid in the picture, it is about 3/4" down from the top. It was full a few weeks back...

Also, notice the ruined paint, my original vent line was dry rotted and leaking fluid :mad:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1580260178.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1580260178.jpg

Simply run the overflow line into a (1/2 pint) plastic bottle and secure it up front somewhere. That's what we did in all my 911 race cars, never an issue.

A follow up on my modification which was a microscopic drill bit to the top of the cap and blocking off the drain plug...

No noticable loss of fluid and no noticable fluid in the over flow containment area. It's been like that for 8 years or so with plenty of spirited driving.

I'm going to call the 'U-Turn' brake fluid vent a success. After 200 miles of my favorite twisty roads my brake fluid is no longer escaping out the vent.

Clearly the dedicated overflow bottle is superior for track work, but good to know that the correct routing (as engineered by Porsche) works just fine for spirited driving, straight shot to the fender, does not.

The vented cap like Kemo posted is probably fine as well, but would make a heck of a mess if you ever truly boiled your brake fluid...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1580860905.jpg

?? What king of pressure is that hose releasing to be able to lift the tires off the track? ??
Have you tried pointing it towards the rear to generate some propulsion/acceleration ??

:D:D:D:D

Turning in autocross. Hose is just hangin' there.

Full picture:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1580927521.jpg

For those who adhere to the factory outflow path of the overflow tube, keep track of the chassis sheet metal adjacent to that exit point. BF does an excellent job at removing paint which then exposes the underlying sheet metal to the elements.

S

I had this issue with my 85 911 running DE. at first very worried about where the BF was going.

once I realized it was out the overflow, connected a little bottle to the overflow line. and based on a suggestion made a couple loops in the line. those loops seemed to help reduce the amount. maybe by not providing any suction of the fluid going out and down an open tube.

sold that car.