No SUVs...it is a start

[mikeferg75]

Douglas,
I really disagree with your logic. You make a statement like

"And if you contribute in some way to making my air worse and my roads more dangerous then, yes, the things you do affect me, and thus the things you do are my business"

But that's saying they affect "you". Just cause you don't care for it does not mean it is bad for the society as a whole. Your quality of life goes down sure, but you have to realize other people's quality of life goes down in other ways that you maybe think as an imporvment. Like if SUV's were suddenly banned, I like SUVs My quality of life just went down, cause I can't drive one?
I ride my bike to work 4 days a week, it's crazy for me to expect cars to give me more room on the shoulder or not to pass me so close. Society has decided the middle ground already, that's why some have suv's and other don't.

Point is never is everyone going to be happy, learn to deal with dissapointment, and deal with people doing things that you don't like. Thay are not bad people.

[roadtrp204]

This debate has been rather entertaining. All this energy is directed at one type of vehicle on the road and its generality of being big and over consuming. There are many SUV models that are nothing more than your average car with a little more ground clearance. Almost all models have gotten bigger and have more power then just 10 years ago, Toyota and VW are making 8 cylinder models now. One simple thing I am pretty sure of is none of the people participating in this debate will die from the planet become to hot to support life or reach a time in which there is no more gas to be pumped without a reasonable alternative. We will overpopulate and consume ourselves to extiction long before that.

[Serge914]

I dont agree with you Chris. Peoples are already dying because of the smog, because we are getting more tornados, hurricanes and floods. Of course most of us won't die of it directly, but I have kids and I wonder what kind of planet they will live on.

[M. Hendrix]

Active volcanos put more CO, S, DO/DO, and pU2 (ad naus) in the air in a day than all humans alive today, and born for the next hundred years could at full capacity, for a hundred years.

The late 1800s volume of pollution was not only higher comparatively, it was 1,000s of times as acidic, and I am sure the toxicity would not pass muster in a California gas chamber.. these days.

Looks like the earth has been in a warming phase, ever since the end of the last cooling one. Peoples lives are short, you'd have to live 100,000 years to see what all 'she' can do.

(sigh)

They used to think disease was caused by bad blood, some believe that walking outside with wet hair gives you a cold, still other buy new Apple computers, because they are the best you can get.. (snicker)

Smoking doesn't give teens cancer, butter is nicer than margarine, and better for you..

I liked this world better when we were @ 4.5 billion, people expected you to burn 100 tires a week in your back yard.



People in the time of Socrates lived an average of 20 something, perspective...


M

[red-beard]

Finally, some sanity....

Next, someone will equate driving an SUV with supporting terrorism...

Oh, I guess that's been done

James

Would Jesus put carbs on his 914 or would he leave the fuel injection on?

What about a wood interior?

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

Heh... I've gotten so close to locking this thread so many times while reading it... But so far, the swings toward antagonism seem to have swung back to our normal (more or less) polite tone. Please continue to keep it that way, folks.

Debate is cool. Name-calling is not, and will get the thread locked in a hurry.

--DD

[M. Hendrix]

Oh yeah. I actually nuked it last post, then erased all that.




M

[SGB]

Wheee!! Think how scarey it would be if we all had just one opinion.
Well, this is life on earth.
I'm not movin' into cave.
I love all the good things technology has brought us.
I'm gonna use 'em.
Yep.
I'm sure all this stuff will just get better and cooler and everything like that.
I'm just tryin' to make sure I've got a place to play in.
My kids too.
(and all 914 owners everywhere, and maybe a few other folks I really like)
Thats all.

I'll bet most of those SUVs we gripe about don't leave as big a footprint as my weberfied flat four. I'm just perplexed at all those big 'burbs and 'scursions with soccer mom on the phone. Why they don't want something a little, well, less. But my perceptions come from the 914 school of minimalism, so....
Human be-ings are a puzzlin' bunch. Glad I'm one of 'em.

[sammyg2]

Doug wrote "If you want me out of your business then don't do things with the resourses we share that messes up my business. "

It's you who are messing up my share of the air. All of my vehicles burn cleaner than your 914. Scrap it and stop polluing MY share of the air.
(tongue in cheek).

Oil and distilled products do not belong to "us". They belong to the owner of said products. You have no right to someone else's property just because you want it, need it, or because it may be in short supply some day.

The owner of the land who also possesses mineral rights owns the crude.
The buyer who purchases the oil then takes possession and ownership, not you and me.
The refinery who buys the oil and turns in into gasoline, diesel and jet, then owns those products.
It does not become "our" property until we buy it, pay for it, and put it in our tanks. The we are free to do with it as we please and long as we don't do anything that violates any laws, like modifying the engine, exhaust, or fuel injection system. Yes, putting carbs on the car or modifying it in any way is illegal, at least in the US it is unless the modification is CARB and DOT approved for use on that exact vehicle and in that exact manner.

Anyone (including myself) who does any of these things intentionally pollutes Dougs air and should be ashamed.
All three of my current vehicles are unmolested or modified and will pass the toughest smog requirements in the world (southern Ca.).

I am not without sin however, my previous car got 12 mpg or worse and polluted like a pig, so bad it would make your eyes water. Same with the one before that.
BTW they were both 914s (one a V8 and the other a turbo :-)
I plan to build another 914 soon that will have extensive modifications, not burn very clean, and will get horrible fuel mileage. For that I apologize in advance.

[ddustan]

To me it is all very simple. Drive what you want but be responsible. I see many SUV drivers in a week that really don't need another thing to do in their vehicle but they find ways to concentrate on that damned phone, applying the makeup, or reading a book. 914 drivers, genereally are about the driving experience... NOT sharing that experience with other tasks. The things that people do in the SUVs are done in any other vehicle. Anyone can be responsible....

As for fuel mileage and EPA stuff, I am not an environut. I believe first in freedom. I have the freedom to drive my 914 and dodge others in my commute. Most of this driving is avoiding others... While I am doing this I have never gotten less thsan 32 miles per gallon. When I'm on the highway I see 40-44 MPG often at 70 MPH/3000RPM. My car is NOT dirty, not next to a diesel SUV stomping the crap out of the accellerator so you can hack on the particles.

My point; drive what you want but be responsible. Look for others and be considerate. That may be thinking about sharing some of that fuel for others....

[douglas robbins]

Originally posted by mikeferg75
Just cause you don't care for it does not mean it is bad for the society as a whole. Your quality of life goes down sure, but you have to realize other people's quality of life goes down in other ways that you maybe think as an imporvment. Like if SUV's were suddenly banned, I like SUVs My quality of life just went down, cause I can't drive one?

MikeFerg,

I don't entirely disagree with you. In fact if I believed that society on a whole was better off with SUVs than without SUVs I would not be against them.

But this is the way I weigh the issue: on the one hand are SUV owners who get a certain amount of utility and enjoyment out of their SUVs. On other hand are the rest of us (the rest of society) who are put at risk because (1) SUVs pose excessive crash hazzards to non SUVs (2) because SUVs have lower CAFE ratings so they don't have to get very good milate, and (3) they cause pollution and consume limited non-renewable resources.

Now, if the people who owned SUVs had a really good reason to own them, like for example, they lived in an area where they needed to go off road alot, then that would be fine. That's the kind of utility that I think justifies the burden that the SUV places on the rest of society. I have no beef with those people. And for a similar reason I have no trouble with trucks. For the most part people who own trucks get good use out of their trucks, hauling things around. And they couldn't do that in a car.

But the people I live with here in the Bay Area never go off road. Their shiny new Land Rovers and Land Cruisers and Hummers are ding-less and mudless. So as a result these people are taxing society with their waste and their risk (real costs that we have to bear) but they enjoy no offsetting benefit (like the fact that they need to go off road to get to their farm, etc) that justifies the tax that society has to bear.

I concur: interesting discussion.

Douglas

[M. Hendrix]

I don't buy that, not a bit. I think reality is sidetracked... I don't think there is much of a problem, except for people wanting to tell me how to do my time.

Liberty, I am not going to be a boiled frog.. just the discussion sends shivers through me.

I don't trust any of you guys with my life/lifestyle, but I'll kick someone's ass for trying to tread on you.

Now, if you want to start a movment to REALLY ban illegals, and rap music, both are higher on my list of "things to do in life".


M

[Amark]

[Jared at Pelican Parts]

Somehow, this song seems fitting

Dead Kennedys - Winnebago Warrior

"Winnebago Warrior"

Roughin' it in the great outdoors
Guidebooks tell us where to go
Winnebago Warrior

Slow down traffic climbing hills
30 gallons to the mile
Honey, quick, the polaroid

[Chorus]
Winnebago Warrior
Brave as old John Wayne
Winnebago Warrior
A true yankee pioneer

Stop at Stuckey's for a meal
Blab all day on the CB
Winnebago Warrior

Littered campgrounds, folding chairs
Feed Doritos to the bears
Honey, quick, the polaroid

[Chorus]

Kill some fish down by the creek
Hang their picture by the sink
Show your grandson who's the boss

Tie your two toat-goats to the front
U-Haul trailer full of souvenirs
That you buy along the way