Electronic Ignition

[Hi_Fi_Guy]

Well, the 914 project has been set back a few weeks (shop building the car is closed for Monterey until next week) and I have a new delima. As soon as they get back the car gets it's final body touch-up and then goes in for paint. After that the drivetrain goes in. So Jake's 2270 will finally be in the 914 in about two weeks, maybe three.

So here is the newest road-bump. The car builder (who normally builds 914-6 racers) is talking about major changes to the engine set-up and I am not sure what would be best for the car and what would be a waste of cash.

The 2270 TYPE-IV, as Jake built it, has a standard Bosch distributor. The car builder is wanting to switch to a crank fire ignition set-up that would run $2-$3k easy but promises it will make the carb'd engine run better and be more reliable, smoother, faster, etc.

So what is everyone running for ignition and what is your experience?

Stock Distributor, upgraded distributor, aftermarket black box, ignighter, crank fire, full on engine management, or ????

Any and all input appreciated.

[DNHunt]

Look I love electronics. Built a MegaSquirt and have it running. I'm just dying to put together a DIS system. But where you're going KEEP IT SIMPLE. Something in Jake's ignition goes out you can fix it and you are still in.

Digital should be very dependable but if it breaks you're out and I bet very dissappointed. Burn a trace or cook something in the brain you're out unless you've got another one. Mess with the DIS afterwards. My 2 cents

Dave

[kellzey]

Jake builds his motors very well. He KNOWS what he is doing and wouldn't include something that isn't right. I woudln't F with it.

If the builder doesn't agree and is really pushing this, then I would find another builder that will do what YOU want, not what HE wants. Perhaps he just wants to give you a bigger invoice at the end.

Yes... sometimes electronic ignitions can help carbed cars, but not always.

[Hi_Fi_Guy]

Thanks for the feedback so far. Just to clarify I do think the car builder is honest. His shop usually builds $50-$80k 914-6 racers so they do know their stuff.

The problem I am having is keeping some of the hi-end race tech off of my street 914 project. I am open mided about a Mallory or Petronix or something but I think a crank fire system is probably overkill.

Any reasons not to run the stock mechanical distributor?

[woodman]

Dude, a Mallory system is only about 300-400 bucks. I just bought one and its sitting relatively patiently in the box waiting for my sorry butt to finish the engine. It's not that much of a hit and it's an awesome product. Well that's what everyone that has one says. I'll let you know...

[darisb]

The answer is what do you really need? There are all kind of cool toys out there that we can spend a fortune on. Whether something is right for your situation or not depends on how you are going to use your car.

If you're just going to use it to drive back and forth to work, a crank fired ignition is probably not going to give you a $2k or $3k advantage over a Bosch distributor. On the other hand, if you are going to use your car on the track and want to be be highly competitive, it might end up being a wise purchase.

The majority of the 914 on the road are running Bosch distrubitors, and they run just fine. Then again, the majority of the 914 aren't trying to win races either.

I run a CompuFire in my stock FI distrubitor, and I did notice that the idle evened out a little bit. I also noticed that my car seems to pull a little harder under hard acceleration. The CompuFire was well under $100 (when I bought it).

One last thing, make sure you're chasing the right problem. All kinds of things can make carbs run a little off. Air leaks, out of synch, plugged jet, etc. The only thing a crank fired ignition is going to give you is more stable timing (no shaft wobble, which shouldn't happen with a new distributor), and possibly a hotter spark (if it comes with a hotter coil than what you already have).

Regards

[red-beard]

From what I can see, get points replacement and an MSD unit. The MSD helped my carbed car significantly in the low end, idle and off the line accelleration and stalling. I already had a CD unit, but either it was getting old, or the multiple sparks really helped.

Oh yeah - DO NOT BUY THE TACH ADAPTER! The tach's either work or don't and the tach adapter doesn't help a non-working one. Getting your tach converted to work with an MSD is about $130, if it doesn't work. Some of the later tachs will work right away.

James

[John Rogers]

I agree with the MSD box, but would add one of their off-raod hi vibration coils which will require you to go with some 8.5mm plug wires since the stock ones will bleed voltage like crazy. The Compufire points replacement is handy but get an extra magnetic plate since on a race engine they tend to crack from vibration and could fail at a track. With this setup I get 15K volts at the plug at idle and it goes up as RPM increases so starting is great and the engine seems to be a bit more smoother. Does it make any more power??? I don't know, but I think it helps all the other stuff that make the race engine work very well together. I think the crankfire system would be overkill and I'd use the $$$$ for other things. Good luck

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

Jake has, in the past, heaped praise upon the distributorless ignition systems. You take essentially all of the slop out of the ignition system when you go distributorless, and you have total control over when the sparks happen. It is a non-trivial setup if you have the stock cooling system, though.

Is it worth it? Probably not... Not unless you absolutely have to have the last few percent of power out of the motor. Otherwise, a new Mallory seems to be a good way to go. (Jake may have even tried a Mallory to see what kind of spark timing and jetting the motor likes with that. Ask him.)

The Bosch distributor should work pretty well, though, unless it is worn out and sloppy. Getting rid of the points will help the "slop" but will not eliminate it if the distributor is worn.

I am less certain of the benefits of a hot spark (e.g., CDI setup) or multiple sparks. From what I have heard, the main benefit of a multi-spark system is that the extra sparks can help make up for overly-rich jetting at lower RPMs.

--DD

[Hi_Fi_Guy]

Thanks for the feedback... most of the ideas here mirror my own. I think the crank-fire is cool from a tech standpoint but most likely not needed for my application. Some of the other solutions sound like worthwhile upgrades though.

Thanks!

[red-beard]

CD systems help over stock systems mostly at the high rpm range where the spark gets weaker. The MSD definitely helps with the poorer mixture control on the carbed units. I serously doubt it would help a FI car unless it had some sort of serious issue.

Hay Dave, do you know which parts are the correct ones for the Crane for a 914/6? The catalog is a bit confusing....

James

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

Sorry, not a clue in the world!! Check in the 911 section; early 911 should use the same stuff as 914-6. Original Six distributors (Marelli) are a serious PITA to do anything with, though.

--DD

[red-beard]

Guess it's time to call in........

[p914]

Look at Jacobs eletronics for electronic ignitions.

[Jake Raby]

Brian,
I made a post on my forum about this, and its probably better suited there.

in short:
I could care less WHO the installer is or WHAT he has built, or how MUCH it costs.

Until he spends dyno time, and assembly time and design time specifically with these engines, I won't even make an argument with him- just walk away.

I made a recommendation on my forum about what "I" would do and support.

the fact is that the combo you have is maxxed out where its at in HP. theres a 95% chance that goofing with it at all WILL YIELD less POWER OR COULD LEAD TO DESTRUCTION. IF YOU WANT MORE, YOU HAVE TO START OVER WITH ANOTHER PROVEN COMBO.

If you would have specified during the preliminary build up that the engine would be used primarily for this type of load and performance, I would have recommended another combo more designed for it. The engine you have has excellnt power and durability, but when you want more from it, BIG changes need to be made, or it ain't happenin..

As far as what things cost.......well, it means nothing, and neither does a part's reputation. For example I bought a pair of 2500.00 heads for a 30K+ TIV engine I'm building(and have been for 2 years+) the heads were "SUPPOSED" to be everything in the world........30 minutes later, on a 225 degree engine, it lost TWO valve seats!

I have not droped a seat since 1997, that was the first- until I prove it, I won't sell it. Till I prove it I don't believe what "THEY" say.

BTW, as far as distributorless systems go..... I once loved them, then came the Mallory. The mallory was 500.00 LESS money, and made equal power on the dyno in a back to back test on FIVE different engine combos. The Mallory is 200% easier to use, and is very simple. Alot of times gadgets really do their number on engines. Keep it simple, especially if you are racing it and need to be able to work on something fast!

[Hi_Fi_Guy]

Thanks Jake... you pretty much said EXACTLY what I was thinking. It is certainly nice to hear everyone's thoughts.

I appreciate the input Jake. Hard to believe this 914 wiull soon be on the road... finally!

[david914]

Not necessarily plugging Jacobs, just electronic ignitions in general. I'm running a Jacobs two piece set up on my 1.8 w/ Weber 40IDF's. It makes a HUGE difference in the driveability. Cured a bad off-idle stumble that I fought with for years. I know, I know, the problem is actually in the Weber idle to main transition, but the ignition really did the trick. I'm sure the MSD and Mallory products would yield similar results. For the money, a regular ol' dizzy and the electronic ignition seems to be the way to go. BTW, I'm not sure about other setups, but my Jacobs has a way to quickly bypass (using connectors) the electronic brain in case it decides to take a dump. You can just run straight off the coil by swapping two connectors. Neat.

[p914]

I have the I.C.E. Pak.
If it goes defunct you only have to swap wires back to the original coil and yo is up an runnin agin. It also cured that similar ocasional miss. Just to pep things up I widen the gap on my plugs also.