Wow! This will really tick-off the 911ers
 

I don't normally check out the "Real Porsche" stuff on Ebay, but...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6058&item=24540582 00

That's what I'm Talkin about!

Looks cleaner than the one that I saw in the local Fry's parking lot a number of years back...

--DD

looks like it was made to go there! YUM!

One of the hardest things to solve is the cooling. A 915 gear box may not hold up that well as HP increases.

Yes, that might annoy some 911 owners, but most will just say if that's what blows your dress up, go for it.

What's interesting is the fact that it's "98% done." Does that mean as soon as the guy got far enough he was already tired of it? Or realized he made a mistake?

The main reason people do this, IMO, is that they think the rebuild of the 6 is too expensive. Same with Jags. A Jag motor costs major bucks to overhaul. So, they dump a SBC in it.

The reasons not to do this are obvious: The weight distributionon the 911 is bad enough w/o hanging an iron lump out in the back, and the sweet sound of the 6 will be lost forever. This weight and soound problem is the same with the Jag.

I like same brand swaps myself. A 6 into a 914 is a natural, of course. And putting an LS1 in my Chevy PU would be awesome. But when you start crossing brands, I'm on my way to look at the next car.

My mistake, I was under the impression that the guys that owned 911's and other "real" porsches would be totally freaked by someone swapping out the original 6 with a SBC.

I myself have given serious consideration to a Northstar swap for my '73.

Hey Zeke:
As much as I abhor this kind of cross breeding...your post ( however) typifies responses that get me going too...."iron lump", etc...

This response just typifies the Porsche, snob stereotype... :)

Look at the 911BBS archives where I'm involved in other posts like this. I *also* happen to be student of the SBC...and for all our "refined and sophisticated" use of alloys...our 2.0-3.8 alloy engines weigh the same or more than an iron block SBC with alloy heads..... in any config from 254 to 400 cubic inches.

Think about that....

Anyone who is a serious student of engine design will be fairly impressed about a SBC. Both this engine and our ( justifiably-to-be-proud) Porsche flat six made the "ten-best-ever" engine list on Car &Driver magazine a few years back, too.

As for Jags...you're wrong there too, and by a much more serious amount too. Jag engines are both very heavy and produce less hp than SBC's.

As to sounds for both Jags and Porsches...as well as the point that they simply belong there with their mating body parts....well, there you have a definite point !
---Wil Ferch

Wil, my info doesn't support what you say. First of all, in the ebay ad refferenced, the man said he installed 30mm rear torsions to hold the weight. That's more than many track cars. Second, when a buddy of mine installed a SBC in his Jag, he had to buy heavier springs to hold the car up. You said AL heads. My buddy didn't have AL heads and I was comparing that setup. Does the 911 on Ebay have AL heads?

If that makes the SBC lighter in it's complete installed form, i.e., flywheel, PP, alt, water pump, hoses and all that, well then, I be blowed!

well what it all makes me wonder is why do so many people like the small block chevy? seems to fit well in everything, from a 33 ford tudor sedan to a sports car. I'm sure that a sbc with aluminum heads is probably comparable weight wise with a 6, probably a little heavier, but I'm sure they're close.

why don't more people use stuff like 4.3 6's and stuff like that?

I've heard about the sbc swap in a jag. I've never heard any thing like the benefits you seem to say with the jag motor over a sbc. I've only heard stuff like the jag motors weren't real overly reliable and they were heavy.

But I've never owned one, so.......what do I know?

Biggy, this has gotten pretty far away from 914s, but let me tell you, if you ever drive a Jag, that inline six is about the smoothest, torqueyest engine you can experience. Driving an XKE is like flying a small plane, but better. And the XJ6's were the eptiome of class and comfort. Jags have all along had thier problems, but not with the engine. That thing was designed in the 1930's and it might have outlasted it's usefulness. No, it wasn't a today motor with gobs of HP and RPM. It was just pure luxury and I don't think a Chevy was too good of a replacement. It might very well be in the top 10 of all time being the venerable piece that it is, and I love every bit of the thing. I have a SBC in a '44 Willys (I didn't put it in there, it came that way) and it's a ball.

As far as the 4.3, I'm a huge fan of it as well. The various inductions that the 4.3 has been saddled with over the years has not done much for it's reputation. And there are some other very interesting motors out there to consider in this vain.

But what we are talking about is a Chey in a 911. I reread my post and I don't see where I am a Porsche snob even if I referred to the SBC as an "iron lump." In the back of a 911, it's an iron lump. I'm not being snobbish, I'm calling a spade a spade. Snobs pick on people. If you reread my original post, I said most 911 owners would be more or less indifferent. I said I'd move on. Takes more effort than that to be a snob.

The series III xj6 had a 4.2-liter engine that was designed before word war II and was used up until 1987. It was the definite week link in the late model series III. With the advent of pollution controls they were known for dropping valve guides & cracking heads. The head is held in place with something like 30-8" long studs that pass through the aluminum head & water jacket into the block. The steel studs weld themselves to the head through electrolysis making it a major chore to get the head off the engine. My Jag mechanic has a series III that he is parting out because after many hours he still cant get the head off.

The series III has a high tail gear something like 3.08 to 1. The right SBC will wake the car right up. A Tuned Port SBC with aluminum heads and a roller cam in a jag is a great conversion. A SBC weighs less than the 4.2-liter Jag motor makes more horsepower and torque and is more efficient & reliable.

Milt is no snob. I have no reason to put a SBC in a 914 but I think a
Northstar might be kool (already been done). We should not throw
stones at someones desires. Let them dream. We may all beneffit.
Joe

I stand by my previous statements based on considerable research. The SBC with Alu heads wieghs about 450 lbs...pretty much the same as the catalogued 911 NA engine and less than a 930 set up. In spite of being maybe 5.7 liters big ( not 2.0-3.8). It employs thin-wall casting techniques that people like Jag... decades earlier... can only dream of. Talk about Iron Lumps !!...the Jag has to be king here.
My point is that posts that *continue* to malign good design like the SBC don't match the facts...and such comments continue certain folk-lore that simply isn't true. That was the cruz of my mesage and please take it that way.

--Wil Ferch

OK, we all agree to disagree as friends. I think the reale value suffers on both examples we have been discussing here when motors are swapped out. Again, I could be wrong. I AM NOT TRYING TO GET IN THE LAST WORD. I just forgot to mention this in my previous posts.

I like Chevy's, however, I don't want one in a Jag, Mercedes, Ferrari (yes, I've seen it), Porsche, Austin Healey, MG and so on.

I don't think I ever said you were a snob zeke, if that was directed toward me. I didn't intend to mean that either. I just wanted to clarify that.

I don't think a sbc would be a good fit on a 911 or 914 either. Their torque curves in most cases don't match what the tranny can take. And in a 914 it's alot more weight than a 1.7 or 2.0. But hey, if it can be done and be done really well I think it's pretty cool, just to see all the custom stuff, but I've never driven one to see how it handled. It's funny here though, you say a smc is an iron lump, so would a big block be just an even bigger iron lump?

I havn't seen a properly prepared sbc in a 914(not that they are not out there). All the ones i have seen are cast iron jobs. But lets size up an all alloy block, canted valve alloy heads, forged crank,etc . Make peak power at 6500 to 7000 rpm with a rev limit of 7500. I dont have numbers for weight , but my hunch is it will be slightly lighter than a alluminum cased 911 engine. I bet it would be a very effective car on med to longer tracks. The down falls I see is heavier trans to take the power and brakes. Price would be on the high side too.A v8 mod keeps the hot rod tradition going, and who can argue with the cobras and Listers that did well in the late 50s early 60s. Just my 2 cents

My WHOLE POINT was the "Iron Lump" context and quote from Zeke's post.
....simply not true and such statements perpetuates myths.
As to whether a SBC conversion affects resale value, or desirability, or anything else for that matter....wasn't the point of the discussion.
--- Wil Ferch

I put a V8 in a 914. Wil is correct on the weight.
A SBC with headers and an aluminum intake manifold and iron heads will be around 500 lbs.
With aluminium heads it will be closer to 450.
The flywheel I used was a modified 901 unit, no weight gain there.
The water pump weighed around 10 lbs if you include the pulley, belt, and hoses. not much of a big problem there.
The aluminium radiar and fans weighed not much, prolly less than 20 lbs or so.
Two gallons of water, 16 lbs.
it all ads up to more than a six, but not much more. Then you start subtracting the extra weight of the six besides the engine:
Oil tank, plus 12 quarts of oil vs. 5.
Front mounted oil cooler. Elaborate engine mounting bar in some cases,
etc.

I'd say the SBC with aluminium heads will weigh a little more than a 3.0 six installation after all is said and done but will run circles around the six.

The larger rear torsion bars were not to support the extra weight as the uniformed seller posted. They are used to handle the monstrous torque that is generated by even a mild chebby.

The SBC is so popular because they are cheap, reliable, and fit in small spaces better than almost all other V8s.
They are more popular than the V6's because high performance parts are easier to find and cheaper. They make much more power than a comparable V6. Installation of a V6 costs at least as much as a V8.
V6's are inherently flawed as far as balance goes. You can try to dampen the vibration or get creative, but all V6s vibrate more than a comperable V8. It's just the way it is. Some are btter than others.
A straight 6 is a much better design than a V6.

Having said all that and being someone who has BTDT, I would much prefer a Porsche six to a V8 in a Porsche.
A V8 car would be faster and stronger, but not as much fun in the long run.

I want my 914 V8 in a bad way....but you cant race it and be in a competitive class. So now it sits in pieces as I work feverishly on my 2.0 4 banger. Im trying to get it done before the next AX

SBC never die, they just go faster

Not even in a Jeep.:D :D

Funny someone should mention putting a 4.3 V6 in a 914 or 911. I have an '89 GMC Jimmy 4x4 with a 4.3 that runs great. I just take it off road and beat the crap out of it occasionally. Its got balls for certain, not sure on how many horses it has though. I have been thinking more and more about trying to jam it in my '73 914. It would be a huge improvement over the 1.7 dog. What kinda tranny would I use, would a 901 be compatible? I wouldnt think it would.

I'm a 911 guy, AND a Chevy guy, and I know that these type conversions are pretty popular. But... a 305?!? Come on now, those engines were dogs right from the git-go. I could understand a 327 for a small cubic inch SBC, but the 305 was a smog motor that basically isn't worth building up. Much better to go with a Goodwrench 350. $1200 new and more torque than you'll ever need in a 911.

Hey Bob, you got me on that one! How's the 914/V8 project going?

True,
Many people (especially true with Many Porsche owners) look at the more "basic" versions of the small block chevy and think it is not a performance engine, but they should look to the factory performance versions (especially the factory race cars).

The 350 only became available in 1967, and not really a performance piece except for a few 1970 variations (Corvette and Z-28 camaro). Most of the 350's developement was spent during the 70s and 80;s when emissions and smog laws curtailed performance...

Look at the factory offerings of the 327 (up to 375HP (rated) in a stock "show-room" 1965 Corvette (not some one-off race car). These motors also had "factory" red-lines of 6500, but would usually pull much higher RPMs...

Then there was the 302 version used only in the 1967-1969 Camaro Z-28s... These motors were rated at a conservative 295 HP, but in reality were much stronger. These motors were built to be raced, and the stock motors could easily top 7000 RPM in stock, show-room form... Rebuild with a balance job, and I have seen street motors reliably peak at over 8500 RPM, and comfortably cruise for a few hours at 5000RPM+ (and this was with early 80's technology and not alot of money). While these motors were originally intended for racing, they used a combination of stock parts (327 block and 283 crankshaft, I recall).

Even today, the Nascar engines (limited to I believe 358 CID/5.7 liters) with all their Nascar restrictions, are reving to 9500+ RPM for hours on end and producing 750-800 HP...

I understand the desire to keep a Porsche engine in your Porsche, but if one is after true performance (without regard to originality), then overlooking the SBC solely because it is not from Germany or the design is "old" or its an iron lump is just ignorance... If looking for performance, you look for power, weight and most people would also look at cost. If the power is greater with the Chevy, the weight is similar, and the cost is less, why such a problem?

I own some classic Chevys, and I understand what some Porsche owners are thinking (I think). I have seen people put the classic chevy bodies on 4X4 chassis, which I think is a waste of a classic. And I guess I would laugh if I saw an engine swap with what I thought was a inferior engine (I have seen Chevelles and Camaros with big Cadillac V8 engines installed. Althought the performance was better than most Chevy-engined cars, they didn't look as nice, IMO).

I don't know why so many people choose the 350 for a swap into a Porsche. I think the SBC is a great choice, but a shorter stroke SBC with less low-end torque and higher redline would be better suited for most Porsche swaps... the 350 is better suited for a heavier car, and forget the 305 and 307 engines, as those were not performance versions at all.

The small block Chevy remained the same basic engine from 1955-1990s. It wasn't an outdated engine all those years, its design was just superior from the begining and revised accordingly... Chevrolet knew by the 80's that the engine was begining to show its age (which is why the worked on the ZR1/LT5 Corvette engine, and the newer designs of there V8s of the last few years (often reffered to as the LS1 and LS6, etc).

Its nice to have a newer technologically superior engine, but to have such an engine that lasts for 45+ years (and still going strong) in its basic form is a testament of the original design...

well said.

Question, how much have people spent on a TOTAL V8 conversion. And don't hide anything, include all of the after thought add ons that where made 2yrs down the line.

noporsche is on the money though about the classic being converted to something else, i think when people do a good V8 conversion it is nice, but i can't stop cringing when i see them. I know that you can put a 3.2L Carrera in a 914 for about $9,500. Thats motor, exhaust, flywheel, oiltank and engine mount. Now this is assuming the motor is $6k, and all new parts being around $3500. I'm sure if your a good wheeler and dealer you could do it for less, including some used parts. But after driving a 3.2L with a Dansk sport exhaust(duel tip out), nothing sounds as good to me. Rumbles like some american motors at the low RPMs, and screams bloody murder at the high RPMs. I'm hooked, I'm broke, and I'm an OEM nut.

But its all about what floats your boat, and V8's are good anchors! Call me a snab, call me a Nazi, call me a wanna be porsche owner because Karman stamped my car out and VW put there stamps on it. We all know who designed it, there is no escaping the heart and mind in which it originated from, a true performance master from the beginning.

Kennedy Engineered Products, Palmdale CA....they make a conversion flywheel and adapter that can be sued with the 901 trans.

The 901 is weak at the first gear and fifth is too low...the engine tachs/revs to high at freeway speeds. So most people will lock out first and get a higher fifth gear.

You can DIY or see Renegade for a gear set kit or have them do it for ya....some people have used a 930 trans...but that requires mods too.

The 930 (turbo) trans is a four speed and had TALL gears and is more suited stock wise for the V8....BUT, still needs to be moded as the trnas turns the wrong way.....

YMMV

Why do people use 350 engines instead of a short stroke 327 or 302?

350s are cheap and plentiful. I haven't seen a 327 lately that wasn't all used up. A good one is hard to find and aint as cheap as a 350.
Aluminum 302s cost three arms and a leg, I aint got but two arms so that leaves me out.

I could build a 327 out of a 350 real easy but it still costs more money. A 350 forged crank costs about $10 a pound ;)
a perfect 327 crank is getting to be made of unobtainium around here.

The reason most go to a V8 conversion is cheap horsepower. If they build a $4000 V8 is aint cheaper any more.

Hey, you chevy in my porsche ... you got porsche in my chevy....its two. two treats in one...