'76 won't start, need ideas...

D1A3 · 06-29-2004, 12:07 PM

Well, the gremlins finally paid me a visit...

Thsi morning, the first day in 3 weeks it has not rained in Atlanta, I got up to drive '76 914. To my dismay, I put the key in the ignition and turned it, nothing No lights on the dash or anything!

I checked the battery and it has juice. The interior light comes on and the radio plays. However, it is like I have a dead ignition switch. Nothing happens whatsoever when the key is turned.

Everything was workign fine weekend before last. At that time, I had the car up and was cleaning up the engine from underneath. Even after that though, the car drove. Any ideas on what could be wrong and what I should look at tonight? My guess is that a wire somewhere worked loose and is causing the problem.

Oh yeah, not that I think it is related, but I did replace the drain tube on the passenger side as the spout was cracked with age. Anything in that area that could be contributing?

The car is napping in the garage until this gets fixed....

yoh!!! · yoh!!!'s Garage

Your guess with the ign. switch is a good one! Check the matching tech article in this context. Most 914 ign. switches cause trouble while turning the last step in order to run the starter motor. Yours seem to have problems even with some of the less current demanding circuits. Check the battery connections, also check the ground connections.

Patrick

Bruce Brown · 06-29-2004, 12:58 PM

Check to see if one the small wires came off the coil.

AaronM · 06-29-2004, 05:10 PM

With the transmission IN NEUTRAL and the rear end OFF THE GROUND jumper the two terminals on the starter solenoid with the ignition in the "Run" position. If the engine starts and runs then either the solenoid is shot or the ignition switch is only functioning in "run" mode and is not passing current to the solenoid in "start" position. If the engine cranks but does not start, chances are that the ignition switch is gone completely. If the starter doesn't even spin, then it's not getting electricity and something else is the culpret.

Note that this method is inherently risky since the starter runs on high voltage current and you stand a good chance of electrocuting yourself if you are not extremely careful. I assume no responsibility if the car falls of the jackstands or if you electrocute or otherwise injure, maim, or kill yourself. :P

Aaron

D1A3 · 06-30-2004, 11:37 AM

Thanks guys for the ideas so far.

Last night, I verified that all of the various wires in the engine bay are all connected to the appropriate points. I also looked under the car and verified that the ground strap is well connected between the transmission and body. All fuses were checked and they are all intact. In the Haynes Manual I saw a reference to an "ignition interruptor" on Sportomatics. Does the 5-Speed have anything like this?

Also, I noticed in the Haynes manaul a procedure wehre you can jump Terminal 30 and Terminal 50 to try testing the ignition switch. Sorry to sound dumb, but wehre are these and how do I know which is which?

This is just so wierd since everything was workign just fine since I bought the car last year and now I get nothing. The parking lights come on when I poull the headlight swithch, the radio works and the interior light comes on when the door is opened. But agasin, I out the key iun and nothing happens. No lights come on at the dash or anything. It's completely dead. I turn the key and it clcks nicley in the first two positions. Turning it to start the car has the regular spring-like resistance and then it returns to the second position.

Need some more help here as my wife is using this as another reason I should get rid of this car. If it's not running, it hard to defend the space it's taking up.

Dave at Pelican Parts · Dave at Pelican Parts's Garage

Sounds like a bad ignition switch. Or bad wiring from the battery to the switch.

--DD

MarkGC · 06-30-2004, 12:40 PM

If I had a nickel for every VW style ignition switch I sold back in my auto-parts days I'd still own my Ferrari!!

Remeber all ignition related power goes through this switch, as do most accessories. The switch has 2 possitions, one for engaging the starter motor, and the the 'resting' position where everything is running. One or both of these positions can go bad.

Try hooking a test light to the wire to the spade terminal (i.e. solenoid hot from switch) on starter, and turn on switch. If test light does not light up, start thinking ignition switch circuit.

If it does light up (indicating solenoid is getting at least some juice) then start thinking voltage drop, bad sloenoid or flat spot on starter ststor.

sleepdoc · 07-02-2004, 12:52 AM

Hi,

Common things are indeed common. Batteries go way low in the damp commonly. Switches on the other hand usually fail intermittently first.
I think I would charge/switch out the battery before I hunted the gremlins.

best Mark

D1A3 · 07-02-2004, 06:22 PM

All,

Thanks for the ideas to date...

Regardignt he battery, I have confirmed 12V off the battery and even had jumper cables hooked up to rule it out.

Next, I pulled the sterring column and ignition tumbler. I checked terminal 30 and terminal 50 (as noted in the Haynes manual on Page 142) with a voltmeter and I'm getting 12 volts at the ignition. Just to make sure it was not the switch, I ran out and got a new one today. Still nothing.

I further checked the coil and all wires are connected. It does not seem I coudl get a reading off it though. I went under the car and the starter has nothing either, but I assume I need someone else to turn the key when I have the probes on it.

Since I'm getting power at the switch, what is the next best step? Mark refers to the solenoid, but I'm not sure where that is, or maybe that is also the Starter located above the transmission?

914GT · 07-02-2004, 06:49 PM

Attach your voltmeter between the chassis (ground) and the terminal on the starter from the ignition switch (solenoid). With transmission in neutral watch the voltmeter when turning the ignition switch to start. If there's nothing, than you have a wiring problem somewhere between the battery through the switch and out to the starter. If you see full battery voltage, 12V, then your starter solenoid has opened up. It should be around 9-10 V and the solenoid should be clicking. You can do it yourself if the voltmeter leads are long enough to see the meter when you turn the switch.

D1A3 · 07-02-2004, 08:36 PM

thanks Guy! Will trty it tomorrow.

By the way, with all of these talks about the solenoid going bad, woudl that cause NONE of the dash lights (warning lights) to come on when the key is turned to the first position? That is what is getting me. I always thought that the solenoid was only engaged when the key is all the way forward and the switch is in the "Start" position.

However, considering that I was under the car cleaning the engine and spraying water, would not surprise me if the water etc did something to the solenoid. Woudl'nt think so since sometimes you have to drive in the rain, but who knows.

Here in Atlanta, we have now had two days without rain in the last month and I just want to get out and drive! I hope the solenoid is what turns out to be the problem so I can back on the road quickly.

914GT · 03:55 PM

D1A3 - You're right, a problem with the starter wouldn't have anything to do with the dash lights *not* coming on. That must be a separate problem (yes - 914s can have more than one thing wrong at the same time). But first chase down the starter problem. You should be getting voltages on the starter terminals. The only other thing I can suggest is that maybe water worked into the battery terminal connection if that's still the junction for all the car +12V circuits (bunch of red wires). Make sure there isn't corrosion underneath any insulation. This can cause a high-resistance and you may still measure 12V on the ignition switch, but this quickly drops to zero as soon as a load is pulled on the battery.

silver2.0 · silver2.0's Garage

Just a thought, and I haven't looked at the voltmeter wiring diagram, but I had the same symptoms on an old dodge pickup once. The terminal behind the guage broke, and it fed virtually everything through it. I have NO idea if it is wired this way on our teeners, but you might look at your wiring diagram. Sounds like your on the right track.

Tony

D1A3 · 07-03-2004, 09:05 PM

Hi Tony,

What do yo mean by "the terminal behind the gauge?" Sorry, but I'm not understanding where exactly I'm supposed to look and what I do when I get there...

-Jason

914GT · 07-03-2004, 09:32 PM

The voltmeter and oil temp gauge pick up 12V off the brake light switch (red wire with white stripe). This wire is light gauge and the meter is not a common connection for all the car's electrical circuits. The main junction point is where the 4 red wires terminate at the battery + terminal. That's where any hidden corrosion will hose things up.

D1A3 · 07-04-2004, 12:34 AM

Thanks Guy for the quick reponse. Will look into that in the morning...

-Jason

silver2.0 · silver2.0's Garage

you know, come to think of it, I may have spoke out of context. My old dodge had an AMP meter, not a volt meter. THus, the way it was wired, with almost everything going through it. Sorry about that. Keep us posted.

D1A3 · 07-04-2004, 09:03 PM

OK guys, Here is the latest... I was able to get 12V today off the solenoid. Any other ideas? I'm still NOT getting any dash lights when I turn the key.

I turned on the fog lights and parking lights and turned the key, lights stay on bright with no dimming.

I aslo noticed that the headlights did not raise. Wondering if maybe something went bad there that is messing this al up? If, however, I turn the headlamp motor, the light will coem up and go back down, jst does not come on at all. I assume it is part of the same circuit...

Sill have a 914 napping in my garage...

AaronM · 07-05-2004, 09:23 AM

The headlights will not raise or illuminate if the ignition is not in the "on" position. So if the key is turned but the lights still won't raise, then something in the wiring is causing the car to think that the car is not "on".

Aaron

D1A3 · 07-05-2004, 02:34 PM

thaniks Aaron, got it.

What I meant by my last post was that their is no drain on the system when the key is turned. Therefore, like Aaron mentioned, the car does not think it is "on."

Any areas under the dash I shoudl be looking at? I still think something either came loose or is beign shorted behind the rear firewall... All ideas so far are not panning out. HELP!!!!!