914 2.2 cylinders & pistons

[CoryB]

Anyone know where I can get a set of 2.2 cylinders and pistons? How much do they usually cost?

[jabez]

Jake Raby. He posts often here.

[DDS]

Hi CoryB:

Jake's website gives a good idea of configurations that make sense and of what is required.

I've come to the conclusion that 96mm P&Cs are the way to go for a street car with any sort of budget, and you stroke from there to determine your final displacement. Stroking leads to a bigtime price spiral that is not for the thin of wallet. A properly done 'big 4' will at least approach the cost of a budget-minded six conversion using a lovingly pre-owned six.
Check out Jake's 2270 kit. I've shopped around and imho his prices are reasonable when you include the expertise, preparation and assistance he offers.

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

2.2 Four or Six?

The Six stuff is stock parts; just check the 70-71 911 catalog for prices.

For a 2.2 Four, you have to figure out what bore and stroke you're talking about. Then talk to the people who stock oversized Type IV stuff.

The 2270 long-block, last I heard, was less than a Six conversion--assuming you pay list price for all of the conversion goodies and at least $1K for the six-cylinder engine. (If you get a 911 engine for less than $1K, don't be surprised if it dies on you very shortly...)

The Type IV motors really do bolt in. Not so for anything else. That tends to make even expensive Type IVs cheaper overall than the rest. But you don't get that magnificent six-cylinder sound, nor all the other benefits of the 911 engine...

--DD

------------------
Pelican Parts 914 Tech Support

A few pics of my car: http://www.pelicanparts.com/gallery/Dave_Darling

[DDS]

I should be very careful how I paint that 4 vs six comparison...

Per Jakes Website, a 2270 big 4 costs about 4 grand US plus induction, ignition and exhaust. Induction is worth another $600 at least, suitable exhaust totals about another grand say. Ignition? Will you be needing chassis upgrades for that 150+hp sir?

My frame of reference is this -
If I pay 2500CDN or less for the six and sell my fresh 2.0 for $1500 cdn, then the six is only a bit more than the big 4. What I didn't mention is that my car is already somehat prepped for the six (SC suspension/brakes, bulkead engine mount, GT stiffening, flares, etc...)

A smaller six in reasonable shape is quite feasible for this scenario, a decent 3.0 or 3.2 is probably a few grand more. For an apples to apples comparison, A similarly used big four would be MUCH cheaper of course if such an engine could be found.



[This message has been edited by DDS (edited 09-18-2001).]

[CoryB]

Hey guys, thanks for your input, I talked to Jake on the phone and he suggested going with a 78.4mm crank to get the displacment I want. In doing this is there anything else I have to upgrade while doing a rebuild or can I use all stock parts? (i.e. can I still use my stock FI or do I need to go to carbs, do I need different size cams.... stuff like that) And what is the crank size of stock 73' 2.0?

Thanks, Cory

[DDS]

Boy, did I investigate this one, so here's my newbie answer to hopefully save everyone on this BBS who helped me the trouble of repeating themselves. Please correct me if I'm wrong anywhere.

You could go cheap and install a stroker crank and stock rods in an essentially stock motor. You will have to clearance the rods and may need a cam ground on reduced base circles. Rimco was cheapest that I found for the crank, but Jake offered a really fair price on a balanced, clearanced, CW crank and rod assembly. This approach leads to a low RPM high torque motor, which I decided wasn't for me - Jake sells that configuration for VW buses. You will still want to do the full top and bottom end rebuild of course, including a new cam and lifters - This was suggested to me by DD and others, and lo and behold when I got the cases apart, the cam was shot. So, crank, cam, cam gear, lifters, cam bearings, main and rod bearings, re-and re your rods, new bolts, gasket set, longer pushrods, cylinder base shims, spacers for rocker arms, probably valve springs, Tom wilson's book.

D-Jet may or may not be workable, and you'll be limited by it and the stock valve sizes.

What kind of shape are your heads in? Mine were shot anyway , so I had them rebuilt with bigger valves and that's what got me thinking. Bear in mind that budget at this point was not an overriding factor.

Here's the logical loop I followed - (remember, I had already rebuilt my heads with big valves.) If you're building a big four that has all the interdependent aspects of the engine modified concurrently as a system, you'll probably decide that
D-jet won't cut it, and even if it can be made to work, you'll still be stuck with its limitations. You'll want to investigate aftermarket FI or carbs, probably Weber 48s or Del 45s. This decision frees up some cam options.
Jake can suggest a cam. That cam will require new bearings, lifters, a gear, and stiffer valve springs.
You'll need a counterweighted (for case longevity and smoothness and higher RPM) stroker crank (about $500) and rods with type one wrist pins - thus you need type one pinned pistons to match. There is relatively poor availability of aftermarket type 4 rods, and the stock rods are heavy, weak and too short to make the kind of free revving motor that your 914 would like (my opinion) so type one stuff is the way to go. Also, the pin height of the T1 piston is different so the cylinder base requires less shimming.
You'll need main bearings and rod bearings.
Pistons and cylinders.

A motor like this requires head work to let it breathe.

Check the description of Jake's kit, it seems very well though out (no surprise) he covers all of the things you'll need, and if you're like me what you'll find is that building a big 4 and cutting corners just isn't worth it. (save a grand and risk three)
Jake was very helpful in my decision process and if I hadn't already purchased 96mm pistons with type four wrist pins, I'd have purchased his stroker crank and rods at the very least. If I hadn't already spent the cash on the heads, I'd have likely have bought his 2270 kit.
Many words, hope they are accurate and helpful.

Dave

Stock 2.0 stroke is 71mm.



[This message has been edited by DDS (edited 09-18-2001).]

[Va914]

WOW!
I will be printing this thread off and saving for my rebuild this winter.

Great posts guys!

[CoryB]

DDS: Thanks, exellent information

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

I think I agree with all of it, except perhaps the characterization of the stock rods as "weak". They're plenty strong, but in part because they're fairly beefy--AKA heavy. You can get rods that are lighter and at least as strong, which are much more appropriate for high RPMs.

And it sounds like the Six (either now or in the near future) is definitely worthwhile for you, Dave. Sounds like the car is at least 1/3 of the way there already!

Besides, building a 3.2 liter Four is really obnoxiously difficult. Let alone one that lasts for 250K miles. And where else are you gonna get that SOUND??

--DD

------------------
Pelican Parts 914 Tech Support

A few pics of my car: http://www.pelicanparts.com/gallery/Dave_Darling

[chrisreale]

Can anyone provide Jake Raby's web address?

[DDS]

Yup, I should be careful on the rod comment -it's the bolts that are supposed to be too weak for a higher hp engine. The main problem is the weight short length thus rod angle in a stroker.

BTW, my post reads Jake, Jake, Jake, but Greg at FAT is amazing too. I bought some stuff from him, no problems at all and good advice, also a very helpful print catalog and price list. Other than this BBS, here are other good sources of info and parts.

Raby's Aircooled technology
www.aircooledtechnology.com
Jake Raby


Rimco
www.Rimcovw.com
Todd

Fat Performance
www.fatperformance.com
Greg

type4rum at
www.shoptalkforums.com



[This message has been edited by DDS (edited 09-19-2001).]

[Jake Raby]

OK Guys,

Here are my thoughts, but first, there are some inaccuracies here.,.

I believe in stroke...It is more sensible to make more power with less heat...Adding stroke normally moves a powerband DOWN, and adds torque. When you couple this with a longer rod lendth, you mobve the powerband back up, while still making a larger displacement engine.

I have built engines with every bore and stroke size imaginable...All the ones with the best results are on our webpage, the rest have been less than adequate for power or longevity..

My kits are efficiently designed, and bolt together with normal hand tools, as we do the specialized work in house, even parts are stamp indexed so there is no risk of getting the engine out of balance during assembly..

Type 4 engines are not high revvers, it is a known fact, our 2270 comes on hard just below 3 K, and stays on to 5,800 or so!!! hard to beat..(it will rev more, but loses torque past 5.5K.)

I am devloping a high revving (8.5K RPM) prototype and hope to have it tested before the spring and ready for sale....It will not be cheap, as the valve train is mostly formula one...Will keep you posted..

I try to help folks as much as possible, and so does Greg at FAT, he is a friend of mine, and is the only other engine builder that I agree with...We see "eye to eye"