914 weight reduction

joshwiwcharyk · 09:02 AM

- thinking about a transplant - I am going to dyno a 3.0 CIS and race prepped 2.7 with PMO's - I have a feeling they will be within 5-10 ponies of each other

the 2.7 is out of my 911 which I am retiring from track and rally use - the 3.0 CIS starts right up and does'nt cough and spit beter for the city

what do you guys reckon the weight savings would be if I put the 2.7 in the 914 (stricly track car)

what weight can be saved by swopping glass front and rear lids from stock

trying to determine cost vs. weight vs. power

riddle me this...what do you think 10 lbs translates to in power if say the car is 2100 or so?

maybe I should just go on a diet or make a paddle shifter and chop one of legs off...

josh

J P Stein · 01-07-2006, 10:01 AM

What are you willing to give up?
I took out 200 lbs off of my 914 last winter.....it was neither painless, nor cheep. It is now a trailer queen.
I had the late doors (64 lbs ea. on a bathroom scale). We lost 80+ lbs right there with gutted early doors.

The 2.7 alone is about 40 lbs lighter than the 3.0L....btw, any 2.7L "fully prepped" racing engine than doesn't make 30-50 hp more than a stock CIS 3.0L isn't very well prepped.

joshwiwcharyk · 01-07-2006, 10:21 AM

re: 2.7 - your right it is a conservative but solid build - motormeister in CA built it - dunno it might be putting out 260 - 110HP over stock - thats why I want to dyno them

the throttle response and tunability (and 40lbs) might be worth the swap if they are samish HP

re: doors - so you kept the door skins and just gutted - I will keep the glass but maybe there is crap I can still lose there.

I am fairly comfortable with fabbing simple glass (or carbon) I was thinking of cutting the sheet metal out of the bottom of both trunks maybe save 25? lbs total

just looking for the path of least resistance for most benifit - the dash maybe? I bet there is 10lbs of factory rust coat on her bottom...

J P Stein · 01-07-2006, 10:30 AM

How'sa about a pic.

J P Stein · 01-07-2006, 10:32 AM

Nuther

J P Stein · 01-07-2006, 10:37 AM

Quote:

[i]
re: doors - so you kept the door skins and just gutted - I will keep the glass but maybe there is crap I can still lose there.

[/B]

Unfortunately, that's where a good chunk of the weight is.
The late doors also have a saftey beam in em'. .....

An early door....after

seanery · 01-07-2006, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by joshwiwcharyk
motormeister in CA built it

Aye...be careful of that thing. How long have you had it?

joshwiwcharyk · 01-07-2006, 11:01 AM

re: Mr. Steins Car

Sweeeet - love the look of those rear fenders rather than the flares

re: motormeister

Had it 4 years now - drove the JC out of the car including a 2000 Km Targa Newfoundland closed road rally

motor is great - my tech will not vouch for it till its apart but has seen a ton of motors and does'nt have a problem with it - pulls crazy hard with the PMO's - I got talked into Zeniths from motormeister (I was a young punk that did'nt know better - now I know everything ; )

I think they build good long blocks but there business practices do lack a little.

you heard some granade stories? what was the issue

wish I knew about this place I am not going to change a signal bulb without checking this site

seanery · 01-07-2006, 11:06 AM

When I was looking for a motor I went to the facility and looked around and talked to them. I was not impressed. Used parts on a rebuild are not my way.

914club.com is another good source of info.

Dave at Pelican Parts · Dave at Pelican Parts's Garage

Do searches on the 911 BBSes for Motomeister. Some people have had poor experiences with them; some have not. Sounds like you may have gotten a good motor there.

Weight savings is a pretty good thing, provided you don't compromise safety or functionality. Hopefully this car already has a roll bar or cage in it--a cage is best if you're going to be gutting the doors.

I think I recall that the F/R glass lids save you a total of about 75 lbs over the stock ones? A plastic rear window can also shed a few pounds, though the stock window isn't that heavy. Heating and scraping off the tar sheets in the cockpit can save you 20 lbs or more, as I recall.

There are some amazingly light 914s out there. I know one that was down under 1400 lbs wet, but the builder was an abolute fanatic about it. URY914 has a car that is down in that territory as well, as I recall. Most of it is fiberglass now, and it is an autoX specialist--not really suitable for the big track.

I don't like trying to equate pounds lost to HP gained. That completely ignores the fact that the less mass the car has, the easier it is to slow that mass down and the easier it is to make it change direction, in addition to being easier to accelerate. Plus I don't feel that the gains are linear or easy to compute....

--DD

joshwiwcharyk · 01-07-2006, 11:57 AM

good info!

I agree its not a direct relationship BUT now that I think about it my buddy races GT here at Mosport near toronto - in their class winners get weight added for the next event - I bet they know how roughly how lap times suffer with weight

I will send an order in the next month for you to look at

you sell just one maker of lids right? I hear nightmares about fitment - comments? - thinking about losing the lid pistons and just quick release pins - advisable?

J P Stein · 01-07-2006, 01:37 PM

I got mine from Sheridan Motorsports, cause he was about the only one to have a soild hood (no headlights)
10-12 lbs ea....not cheep, but partial CF & nice.
Loose everything & hold them on with pins or Dzuts. FG bumpers are another good weight looser. I've been using them for years.....just don't hit anything....

MM. Nothing to be done for it now, eh?
Drive it till it blows.......that may be some time.
I used some used, but in spec, parts on mine.

I also have a MM motor on my shop bench that was one of their less sucessful rebuilds....lasted maybe 15 minutes, me thinks. They made a really stupid error...... Near as I can figure.

Dave at Pelican Parts · Dave at Pelican Parts's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by joshwiwcharyk
you sell just one maker of lids right? I hear nightmares about fitment - comments? - thinking about losing the lid pistons and just quick release pins - advisable?

I belive that we only carry one manufacturer's FG parts for the 914. There are several who make them, though. Ditching the old latches and springs and such in favor of "hood pins" and a prop rod can save a little weight--not all that much, but when every pound counts... They do give you significantly less complexity to the car, though. And I'm not sure how well most of the FG parts can stand up to the spring pressures used to keep the stock metal parts open.

As JP said, ditching the headlight assemblies (especially the motors!) can save some pretty decent weight. The stock (pre-75, at least!) bumpers aren't that heavy, but FG ones are available. They're right out at the ends, too, which isn't a bad place to save weight. The FG ones probably won't protect much worse than the metal ones, frankly--they're not that stout...

There are FG door skins, if you're of a mind to go that far. Plus thinning the top can help--that weight is right up top, which is a very good place to save weight from!

--DD

campbellcj · 06:54 PM

Don't forget the obvious removal of interior upholstery, carpets, jack, spare tire, sound deadening pad(s), etc., which are also significantly heavy.

Also keep in mind that any weight you shed will partly (or completely) be added back if/when you add a rollbar or full cage, fire system and other safety equipment.

I am curious to learn what my car weighs these days. It is about as gutted as possible, but still has all steel body panels. In POC it is allowed to be 2049lbs (IIRC) baseline without gaining/losing any modification points. Last time it was weighed, it was 19xx but that was a long time ago and it's changed a bunch since then.

joshwiwcharyk · 01-09-2006, 05:36 AM

cool - it has glass bumps already - may as well let the cat out of the bag - I bought Phil Ulrich's car nee Bud McQuay (Colorado) - it was sort of advertised here a couple weeks ago 914-6 3 litre - just getting ahead of myself - its in transit now

hoping just a little spit and polish to put it on the track

Brant · 03:33 PM

Josh,

I know that car and even know the original builder of that car.
it was originally converted as a 3.0L
since its a 75, you've got the heavy doors there.
I'd be real curious to find out what your weight is

where do you live again? Canada?
its a good drivers ed car.
I'm guessing either of those motors will put you into a pretty heavily modified class.
I'd like to hear about your dyno sheet on that 2.7 when you get it although due only to reputation.

brant

Jared at Pelican Parts · 01-09-2006, 02:33 PM

I know several people who will knock the **** out of Roy at MM if they ever get the chance.

Seriously, look elsewhere for a good engine. Henry Schmidt, Tom Woodford, Otto, plenty of good builders out there

RandyLok · 01-09-2006, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by J P Stein
How'sa about a pic.

[HIJACK]
I love your car JP! How about a ride? It would be worth the drive down from Seattle!
[/HIJACK]

J P Stein · 01-09-2006, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RandyLok
[HIJACK]
I love your car JP! How about a ride? It would be worth the drive down from Seattle!
[/HIJACK]

Sure, come on down. We start again in March...both PCA & SCCA. PCA would be best as those events are a bit more low key....and we get more runs. Best to wait till we are getting more sunshine. May, June....?

There's also the Parade (AUG) & WCC(July).

sammyg2 · 01-13-2006, 11:45 AM

Like Tyson at TRE says, pounds are made of ounces. Every one of em helps.

Motormeister has a horrible, almost unbelievably bad reputation around here for building junk and stealing good parts off of cars or engines and replacing them with junk. I haven't personally dealt with them so I base that only on what I have read and heard from others who have dealt with them.
If you have a good MM engine, concider yourself one of the lucky ones.

JP, how many con-secutive days of rain you guys up to? Last I heard you wuz gettin ready to break the record. And whuts that grey stuff on yer chin?
In that first picture it looks like you missed a spot on that back wall when you wuz painting.