914-V8 or not?????
 

I have a 71 914 with a 2.0..... I love the car but hate the power. A big type 4 is mucho $$$$ and a 911 six is much $$$$ as well...

Dollar to HP... converting to V-8 is the way to go and it will have power unlike anything else. I don't want the project so I am going to buy one that has already been converted.

Am i waste'n my time with a 914-v8?

And.... THere is a 914-8 for sale in my city but I want to look at a few before I buy it. Where else can I find 914-8's for sale??

I think the V-8 could give the 914 lots of extra fun. The problem is I think most people do the conversion wrong and damage the car. Kind of like a time bomb. The torque being produced by the engine twists the unibody, and if not reinforced properly you will end up with a nice V8 engine and no car. The transmission needs to be upgraded too. RH says the 901 tranny is good for 300h.p., that may be right. The problem is how much torque can it handle??? They don't say. I'm guessing that it can handle a stock 305, but who is putting one of those in? All I see are 289's, 350's, 327's and 409's.

So if you look at a V8 conversion, check the body for reinforcement. Check to see if the trans was upgraded. Look in general at how the job was done. A better visual job means the person took more time to do the project (this could mean they took greater care to make the car right).

Well, I can't help you with information on a completed V8 car, but you could consider a Porsche V8.... http://www.d.umn.edu/~jrichar4/alien.htm

I will complete this car...:-) SmileWavy

interesting 928 powered car. There was a blue one that Haddon Bros, out of So Cal , had built and shown at the Monterey Porsche Parade some years ago. Their approach was to lengthen the chassis in the rear! Now that was an interesting looking car. Renegade Hybrids does a pretty good job of offering the parts you need to do a Chevy install. How about a turbo rotary? Takes up less space and you can get over 400 hp out of it!

I have a V-8 914 that serves as my daily driver, and it makes for an incredible ride... Check for rust, and the tranny should have first gear blocked out (4 speeds not 5). The 901 is stronger than people give credit, I have lifted the front tires off the ground. Brakes need to be upgraded, gotta be able to scrub off all that extra power.Buying a 30 year old car can be a gamble but if the person did a quality conversion they probably took care of it. Good luck.

The one that interested me was the alloy (?) V6 from the Taurus SHO. Lots of HP as-is, and slick technology. s/b lighter too. I've been told that they can rev up to 10K if you gear down the accessories with a smaller pulley.
It depends what you want, but I'd be more concerned about the added weight of the SBC than anything else, assuming a fresh trans, bigger rubber, upgraded brakes and a stiff chassis already. I bet it would be a lot of fun.
If it is well done, it will be a bargain.

You should subscribe to the porschev group on egroups ( I THINK) but be prepared to be literally inundated with posts...my yahoo mail is constantly full of excellent and COPIOUS information. These are the guys to talk to about the conversion...goods and bads...rights and wrongs! Brian

One rule I have learned....buy someone else's project. You can save 50-60% on the project....

I just recently sold my 914-v8 car, and I would like to dispel
some myths.
1. added weight. a small block chevy with an aluminum radiator, aluminum intake manifold, headers, and cast iron heads will only add about 225 lbs. to the weight of the car, and it is in front of the rear wheels. Big deal.
Take a stock 914 and put a fairly large friend in the passenger seat. does that really change the handling that much? you may feel the added weight as far as acceleration goes, but it really doesn't make that much difference in cornering.
A while back Mike Z. was ripping up San Diego at an auto-x in the rocket. He took me for a lap or two, and his times were within a second of his fastest of the day if I remember correctly.
That is in a car that already had an extra 125 or so lbs. from the six conversion.
2. Brakes. If stock brakes are good enough for a stock engined 914, then they are good enough for a v-8 914 unless you take the car faster than the stocker would go, probably around 115.
I upgraded the brakes eventually, but if the stock brakes are in perfect working condition, they are fine unless you want to drive like a complete madman.
3. Chassis flex. Unless you change the stock rubber suspension bushings to nylon, they will flex more than the chassis will.
The engine torque has very little to do with the chassis flex. Hard cornering will flex the chassis much more than the engine.
4. 901 tranny. Why lock out 1st gear? If the driver knows it is weak, then is it possible to just not use it under full throttle? I rebuilt my tranny and I left 1st gear available. It is nice having it to pull into the garage up a hill or onto a trailer or anywhere you need to creep up slowly.
The 901 is strong. Much stronger than most think. I never jumped on the car in 1st, but I nailed it hard plenty of times in 2nd, 3rd, etc. I smoked the tires around the track plenty of times, speed shifting as fast as my arm could move and never hurt it. I did have the bolts on one CV joint start to come loose, but as far as I know it was close to 30 years old.
most opinions on v-8 cars are passed on through the years, and few come from people who have actually spent a lot of time behind the wheel of one of these cars. I remember reading them before I started my car project. I assumed they were all correct because they were coming from very knowlegable people.
A v-8 radically changes the character of the car. It gives it brute force, but it also takes away some of the charm.
Find someone who owns one of these cars. Take a ride. Maybe even drive it. Then decide for yourself.

Sam,

Excellent post. I'm considering a v8 914 conversion myself and value opinions of folks that have built or owned one......actually more so than the kit makers for obvious reasons.

I've located guys with cars for sale as well as those that are still enjoying their v8s. I guess the most often asked question by someone like me is which kit to use. Opinions from guys that have owned more than one 914 v8 suggest a mix of parts. The sub chassis idea from Red Dawg seems like a excellent idea but then the Renegade kit looks good as well. From what I understand, most are using Kennedy adaptor components. This is a bit confusing trying to understand the various ideas used as well as where the parts are coming from. I'm hearing names like Red Dawg, Simpson and Renegade as the kit providers and am in the process of receiving what they have to offer in the area of info packs, videos etc. I guess as soon as it all comes in, it will make more sense to me.

It seems that radiator cooling is performed different depending on which kit you choose. This is one area I don't want to skimp on due to my location (Ga.). I'm also considering a/c and want a car/kit I can adapt that to. Renegade offers everything needed for a/c weather the car came with it or not.

I'm looking at this project two different ways: to buy a car which is cosmetically complete and then doing the v8 conversion to it "or" buying a partially complete v8 914 conversion. I have considered a turnkey car but that would defeat my purpose in wanting to get back into wrenching on cars again.

I'm still in the learning stages and reading daily about 914's, parts, cars for sale, etc......my wife is looking at me kinda funny these days. She has not seen me so obsessed before. It has been 20+ years since I owned a porsche and am looking forward to wrenching again.

If you've got a v8 914 partially assembled that is for sale, or a good donor "spelled little if any rust chassis", shoot me a email.

John

Here's my take on the various suppliers of conversion kits:
Renegade is probably tops. They are way too darn expensive, but that is to be expected for specialty items with a very limited market. They have the strongest customer service, and that is important. i know Scott Mann and Chris from renegade and I met the other owner at Pomona last week. good people, straight shooters.
Rod Simpson is a real nice guy, talked to him on the phone a couple times. Very helpful. I do not like his cooling system, too many headaches. Renegade's is much better IMO, but at nearly a grand it better be. A cheaper alternative is to buy a large aluminum Griffin radiator from Summit racing for around $180. Mine was 27" x 17 1/2" and laid down at about a 45 degree angle. Don't scrimp on fans or ducting work.
i did some checking into Red Dawg, seemed to me like they were running the business out of a garage. I don't like the idea of exhausting the hot air through the floor, that is a problem.

just about everyone uses Kennedy clutch and adapter parts. go direct and save $$ www.kennedyeng.com

Total cost of the conversion should be around
$2500 not counting the engine or car. That includes stiffer rear springs. all other upgrades like wheels, brakes, etc. will be in addition to that figure.
AC will also cost more, not sure how much.
Not cheap, but supercar performance.
I figure the 901 tranny is only good for a relatively mild small block, unless it is a short stroke motor. Anything much over 350 hp (and around 385 ft. lbs. of torque) will probably overstress the tranny. A good one will probably still last for many thousands of miles under that much torque, but no guarantees.
I saw a couple 915 trannies for sale in www.recycler.com recently in the $800 range. That would be the way to go for a big horsepower motor. The conversion calso osts plenty to install the 915.

Hello

Mr Wagner in Spiessen /Germany built some 914 V8 using 928S or 928 S4 engines. To gain space he moved the rear bulkhead, it is now flush with the strut dome. However some of the cars don´t use the 914 rear axle as you have more place to go inside the engine bay he reconstructet the rear pickup to accept other trailing arms.
As geman TÜV forces to a fixed roof or a full Cage setup if you go over 200 HP he used the 916 steelroof. IFIK 8 cars where made.

I had the opportunity to drive the first made car witch had still the 914 rear axle and it has a slight tuned 300 HP CIS engine and a 4 speed turbo trany, 930 3.3 brakes on all corners. Curb wight at 1200 kg. Very nice comparable to a 289 Cobra yet better handling and more traction. Topseed was limitet to 280 km/h due the speed rate from the tires and the short final drive. However with my stock bodied 914/2,7 RS I achived 275 km/h when the rev limiter hit the 7500/min. So the 300 HP on a 916 body would made the 300km/h for sure.

Price; if you have to ask for..........

I was involved in one Mouse squirreling in Porsche conversion and it was massive work to pass the german laws yet my 914/2,7RS outperformed the conversion in nearly all aspects,
including the built costs. Well you guys are lucky as your technical regulations are somwhere to one sentence: Have fun

AH reguarding brakes. the 914/4 units are constructet for a lite 100 HP car and perform very well on that. As long you keep on driving like you have a light 100 HP car the brakes will not show to much problems. The brakes are not interesstet about the engine there work is simple to kill dynamic energy by transfering it to heat via friction. If you rise the wight the brakes have to work more dynamic into heat and the same is with speed, If you add speed and wight you maybe will overheat the brakes will you are still not came to a stop so the friction rate drops and your brake distance goes up to infinity.
A simple setup to gain more brake power is to swap the frontaxle into 911T units and use the 19mm MBC. Remove the rear brake proportion valve and the rear will work more efficient however this is risky as overbraking rear ends will come loose. If you have that Problem then use 911SC or 930 inline pressure limiter.

Grüsse

i have been reasearching this subject for a long time because my 914 1.7L is just plain dog slow!

i called up renegade hybrids and asked alot of questions.
it costs $2000 to send them your tranny and have it rebuilt and have taller gears placed inside with 1st gear removed.
the basic kit from them is $1500 and that doesnt include cooling and other odds and ends.

and the 914 tranny is limited to 300hp i believe they said. so that means if your building a serous 350 (400-500-600hp) you need the 915 tranny out of a 911. this is alot more money!

JMO it isnt worth it, price vs performance, it is a better buy to mod the crap out of a 2.0L engine and get it to 200hp.
because the 2.0L weighs alot less than the 350 and the 350's water cooling. (water is heavy stuff)

this is what im gonna do. i have a spare 2.0L in the girage, its a runner but stock. im going to put dual 44 webbers on it along with a extreme cam, lifters, ported/polised heads, custom zero restriction headders with no mufflers, euro mahle high comp pistons, 009 dist, and get the whole thing straight bored and balanced with a external oil cooler to boot.
i will build it myself to save money, but have the machine shop do all the work i cant.

a 200hp 2.0L will still last a long time if built properly, and because its so light compared to a chevy, it equals a 250hp chevy engine. (power to weight ratio)

to top it off i can stay all porsche and dont need to have my tranny sent in for a $2000 custom rebuild.


if your lookin for top of the line all out speed 914, chevy or another engine is the way to go, but price vs performance, a wildly hopped up

i have a couple G's saved up for the engine mods. i figure i can buy the dual 44 carbs from a disgruntled 914 owner who wishes to go back to FI, maybe a 009 used dist as well. but everyhitng else will be bought new.
figure it will cost about 2G's to hop up the 2.0 using used parts and doing it myself.
cam and rollers=300
mahle euro high compression pistons=400
used 44 webbers USED= 400
used 009 USED= 50-75
port/polish/straightbore/balance=400
custom high-flo headders=make myself
misc=the rest of the money seals gaskets etc..

I am very skeptical that a 200 hp type 4 will last on the street for all that long. Maybe it can be done, but no way can it be done for the price of a rebuilt 350 chevy. I woult love to see a 200 hp type 4 (on a dyno) that can be built for less than $4500. I don't think it can be done and expect it to stay together for more than several thousand miles (I am talking N/A here, no turbos).
a hot cam, rollers (?), webers, pistons, and port and polish on the heads you will be around 125 to 140 hp tops. That is assuming your headers and a free flow exhaust work well. Hard to do without many hours on a dyno. Do not use a 009 distributor. They do not perform as well as a 050 on type 4s. Plus, they are only around $45 new if you shop around, not $50 to $75 used. A new 050 is only around $58 new from CB performance.

As far as the weight, my conversion only added about 225 lbs to the weight of the car. If I would have installed aluminum heads that number would drop even more, probably down to around 150. Big deal.
Water weighs about 8 lbs per gallon. So the entire contents of my cooling system weighed about 12 lbs. Again, big deal. I eat lunches that weigh more than that :-)
Lets figure out the power to weight ratios:
2425 lb car with 325 hp. (the car i sold).
2200 lb car with 200 hp. (your car).
Mine has a P/W ratio of 7.46
Yours will have a P/W ratio of 11.
Your numbers don't add up.

A v-8 914 is not for everyone. The massive torque changes the characteristics of the car. They are a blast, but you cannot run them full throttle for any period of time like a stock type 4. You simply run out of road too quickly.
Before my conversion car I drove a 914 with a turbocharged 2 liter. That car was a real kick. No where near the hp or torque of the v8, but still very fun to drive. It's Like comparing apples to oranges.

914/v8/v6/f4/f6
 

Hi, Just a car junkie here. I have built a few v8 powered car's. Vega's,Pinto's, MG's. I am now building a 914 v8, power comeing from a buick 215, all aluminum small block. My exsperience is first, research the field. Set an objective, keeping realistic goal's in mind, based on the finances that will go into it. We all spend more money on car's than we would like to think. Cheeseing a project is not the way to go. Kennedy eng, for the coupler, clutch set up, Griffin for the cooling, and double fan's is the way to go. all mentioned are the feild leader's, and supply other's with their product's anyway's. There are other's in the feild and i feel they all mean well in their respective approuch. Cooling of these car's is often over looked, and is why many find there way to the classified add's. Useing the correct wireing and coupler's is very important, electrical gremlin's are not fun and can dampen evan the most enthused builder. do it right the first time and enjoy, don;t and spend your time going over it again. Renagade supplies solid part's, and wireing. Rod Simpson is a racer at heart, use his part's and probably never break anything, but you better have deep pocket's Red dawg has inovative idea's, and a solid approuch, again deep pocket's. I am a fabricator, and have access to pro aluminum pro's allso. Choose your friend wisely, if your a car builder. Many people get riped of, due to lack of knoledge and research. I can say, i feel novice car builder's can build a solid v8 powered 914, with limited talent. It's by far the most interesting and fun progect to date. It allso keep's 914's alive and fun. If your a Porsche purist, a flat six would be the choice of course, again deep pocket's needed. V6, not evan recomended by the people who make the part's to do so, go figure. And the flat four, if youve read this far your ready for an upgrade in power, which is what the factory didn;t do first. Im glad they didn't, that is why we can aford to play with these car;s so resonably. If this help's fine, if not,, oh well, just my opinion's on the matter. Happy car building.

Sammy, adding 10%+ to the weight of the car is not "nothing", as you seem to be trying to say. It will affect the handling. In fact, going from 1/4 tank of fuel to full does affect the handling, and if you've been driving the car for a while you can feel it. (I'm sure it'll take me a while to get that feel back if I ever drive my car again...)

The extra weight and speed pretty much require better brakes. If you never use the speed that the V8 is capable of, the stock brakes may be OK for a little while--but if you never use the V8 speed, why do the conversion in the first place??

I also think the $2500 price tag Sammy quoted is really, really low unless you want a hack-job. Or unless you can buy one that is partly-done already--then you can really make out well financially.

rice_killer, the only 2.0-displacement Type IV motors that I know of that put out 200 HP are spinning at 7,000 RPM. And their lifespan is measured in hours. (Quite a number of hours for the lower-powered "endurance" versions, but still hours.) And they cost much more than $3000 to build. You can quite evidently get a 150 HP Type IV from Raby for about $5K-$6K, but it is not 2.0 liters.

--DD

Hello

@rice_killer

Well a 2.0 type 4 with 200 HP poweroutput is more expensive then buying a 3.0 SC and fit it into the car.
The best pricecut with a 2,0 is somwhere at 130 HP and after that it is much better to go for a 2,4 type 4. They will make solid 160 HP and if you like to spend more with a reinforced head, case and a 6 stud design you can go up to 3.0 with 250 HP.

NA 200 HP from a 2.0 are only possible if you run them without cooling and other power robing things and will rebuild them between your 1/4 mls runs. Just compare the actuall 996 GT has 360 HP from 3,6 L witch is equal 100 HP /L. A catuall Z06 has 408 HP divided by some 5,7 L thats some 70 HP/L.
To compare the number the 1976 VW Golf GTI had 80 HP/L similar number goes for a 1966 911 2.0 S engine

But you are right most converter can´t use ther fingers and line up all the wight added to the car to make it a WC. Thats around 100 Kg just pluming, cooler and Water. If they have money they go for lightwight parts and also use aluminium heads and manifolds if not a complete aluminum engien.
Yet this will burst the bufget for a "cheap" conversion again.

@steve tatro

Forget the Buick grap get a Rover 3,5 Dual SU - 4,5 EFI and some nice parts. ( OK, the Rover engine is the buick tempest block ;))

Good thing is they wight lees then the US iron and will give a fair amout of power plus the british empire spend some really good engeneering into it ( OK the waterpumpproblem and other stuff.... ) . Many sportcars base on that engine ( MG, Chinetta, Morgan +8, TVR, ) gives a good selection on race proven parts.

You can pump some serious 250 HP without spending a fortune and if your wallet is refilled you can go for 300*+.

A other benefit is that the engine is a bit shorter and so the rear trany armes have not to be relocatet and you even have space at the firewall.

@Dave

Forget it the powerr fraction don´t cars for handling and braking. The term balanced is used onto there bankaccount and not onto how the car feels or drive.

It is possible to balance a 914 with a american muscle into a competive car but you will hit the same pricesticker like using a similar powered flat 6. The only nice thing on the conversion is to challange the own creativity and go his own way. Most have the background to achive cheap power and only some grazy people will focus a good balanced car.

And like said in the US are no technical regulations to think about and if someone likes to put a V8 in his lawnmower and has some kind of brakes and lights it can be runed on the street in 49 staates. Just don´t drive faster then 55. This thing is funny and has potential to kill many people. Its on the socitiy to decide how much risk and responsibilty a single person can ( should ) bear.

Grüsse

Spend thousands on your type 4... for just a few more hp? It all comes down to personal preference, and wallet size. I respect anyone who drives a 914, just don't crush it.

Some people love the sound of the 4, to me they sound like VWs - I pump the gas pedal twice and turn the key "Broom!!!" the V8 fires up with authority (sets off car alarms everywhere). I have driven the car 50 miles a day for over a year and I still find it hard to touch the accelerator to the floor - I almost never need more than 1/4 throttle and short shift at 2000 rpm to blow from one traffic light to another. Instead of chasing the hondas, vipers are prey with 400hp.

Hi Ricekiller:

I'm in the process of building the T4 you descrivbe and will be happy to get 130hp. I don't much like the motor, but am hoping to change its character for a reasonable price and make it less bug-like. I've done the brakes, susp and chassis already - I didn't buy the 914 to drag race. It already cost a stupid amount of money, so balance of the bank variety was a concern.

I bet you will spend more than you think on your motor. You'll want a 2.0 core motor and the heads will probably be shot - at least needing rebuild. Expect 500-1000 on the heads if you want to install bigger valves. I bet they'll need welding. Gotta re and re that crank too. You don't see all that many weber 44s around. Lots of 40s. Oil pump? Stock ignition with points? Crappy old air filters? Rebuild carbs? Linkage? Clutch? Flywheel? Gonna get a 'sport' muffler?

I purchased 3 Weber DCNF42s (maserati V6) with a ton of spares and different venturis and jets. Using manifolds from Eurorace, FAT 442 cam, completely rebuilt big valve heads (about $700 IIRC) stock 2.0 crank and rods and NPR 96mm P&Cs. Balanced etc, etc... We'll see what it costs...

What north american car used that that 215 alloy V8? That sounds cool if it could be accomplished with rear-mounted rads somehow.

BTW for those who responded to my lotus thread, here's another one:
Lots Of Trouble, Usually Serious

I do enjoy Roland's posts!

What north american car used that that 215 alloy V8?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yer DAD's

B U I C K....:rolleyes:

Mike's posts are good too.

Hello

Yes in the 60´s GM was a inovative company, just recall the Tempest had a transaxle setup and the Corvair a flat 6 rear engine. Some guys like Duntov, Lapine, Lorean tried to fight the imports with technology. Even Ford made some moves. The first Mustang was a midengine 4.

This was the last time detroit tried to keep up in technology and they made some misstakes ( unsafe at any speed ? ) not understanding why european cars invest more time in engeneering then in designing and they also never understand why european cars did work so good. They just replicatet them bigger and overblowed the problems as well without knowing that or the ability to handle that.

The Buick Aluminiumengines where to sophisticatet and had some fatal missengeneering ( the brits needed some years to fix that ).

Hell even the top of the line ZL1 engines for race cars died faster then they could be raced.

General line there is no "cheap" power either way you go. The american way is only working becourse US rules will allow a unbalanced car for street use and so you don´t have to invest in other upgrades then the big engine and the souround that will hold it in the car. You don´thave to pass any technical inspection where the design and the quality from the craftsmanship has to be profed.

There is always the general problem in discussing these issues as everyone has other ways to definate a better car.

Some people are satisfied if they just can accelerate faster then everyone else and use a parachute to break down from the high speeds. Others like to drive fast on all those winding backroads and enjoy the thrill to have allways power for a fourwheeldrift or a powerslide and enough grunt to overtake other cars at speeds bejound 100 mph.
Both guys love power but this is like figthing with a Broadsword against a Katana. So we are both brothers in arms as both wheapons can kill. But need other technice and guys a Samuari will mostly kill a broadsworder by just not being there when the strike comes but leave the sharp knife and let him run against that using his own force to slice him nice.
The deeper story behind that is to complicatet to explain.

@DDS will love that. Had seen your Lotus thread but If I say the Europa is much better then the 914 as long you are dwarf sized ( to enter it and fit in there ) and willing to recunstruct the cars bad corners count in as welcomed from the ownership. The 914 costumer and the Europa costumer wher divided when the bought there car.
Lotus was known for fast puzzle boxes and Porsche was known for not so fast but nice and reliable sportscars. The Europa was a step into mass production like Porsche did when they moved from Austria to Stuttgart. Yet Lotus never had time to make hisstreetcars work as he was only interesstet in raceing ( like Ferrarias well ). He just needed the money to invest into Formula 1.
Porsche on the other hand was allways interesstet improving the costumer car and make it able for every costumer to be competive on the race events while using the daily driver.
When Porsche was involved in Formula 2 and scored some wins they steped up to Formula 1. but they gave it up as they didn´t see the costs or the parts where rewared into the costumers cars. So the Formula 1 divison was focused to make something usefull for streetuse and that was the 911. The last time that happend the Mc Larren F1 was born.

BTW Other good candidates for speed thrill are the Renault 110 Alpine´s. 130 HP make a 160 HP 911 shrink in the mirror.

Grüsse

When ever the v8 conversion topic comes up there are several opinions, here is what I found:
The 901 will live with 400 + HP including leaving 1st gear in place, you never ever abuse the car in that gear. When doing this conversion with the stock transaxle, destroke the motor shorten the cam lift and lengthen the duration, do everything you can to move the torque curve up the rpm range. In short make you can the motor have similar characteristics of the stock motor. If you don't than plan on several thousand dollars to convert the transaxle to a 930. In these conversion the money can go into the motor or the transaxle in my case I chose the motor.
Suspension, use a the 911 SC front end with the sway bar, make sure the brakes are adequate for the way you drive, Brembo mono blocks work well but you have to convert to 16 inch wheels. Go with 200lb rear springs, flare the rear fenders so you can enlarge the contact area of the tires.
A properly converted 14 will run 4 sec 0 to 60 go 0 to 100 and back to 0 in 10 secs and out handle its rear engine brothers. But a correct conversion is not cheap, and a cheap conversion will probably disapoint the owner.

I have a friend who has installed a V8 into his 911. He has done a great job, but it still working out some of the bugs. This process is not cheap by any means. Sure the SBC may start out cheap, but generating HP is big $$$. The whole frabrication thing with cooling etc can also be an expensive venture. Also, as one generates more HP from a SBC, the life of the motor goes way down. Another concern for the track, oil pick-up may be a problem on a long sweeper.

IMHO, V8 conversions have been done cheaply, they have been done well, but I don't think they can be done well and cheaply.

If the question is dollars and sense, nothing about these cars is cheap, and good work of any kind sure isn't. This brings us back to Mikez's point about buying someone elses's project. Here in Canada where teeners are rare, freight is expensive and the CDN dollar is low, it may make more sense to do the work vs import a car, even then it costs lots of money.
One of you California guys ought to offer a 'teener sourcing service - If I wanted to buy one, I'd have to fly down and tour the countryside hoping to find the right car on that trip. Big cost vs value of the car. In retrospect, I should have been patient and arranged with one of you guys to find one for me.
@Roland
at a long legged 6' tall, I can fit in the Lotus very comfortably, moreso than in a 'teener with a stock dia steering wheel. A friend who is slightly taller but shorter of leg hits his head on the roof. Not sure I'd think of the lotus as a Samurai sword... Maybe a very well prepped Ginsu.
The balance thing you refer to is very true, but there is more underlying American car design 'culture' than the brute force mentality. You know that roads here at least are comparatively long, wide, and straight, distances are long and summers are very hot, winters are very cold and fuel has always been relatively cheap. Cars that handle and brake well are generally not required for daily driving the way they are in europe. Gobbling up long boring distances in comfort is more desireable for most. A car that does both well costs big bucks. (The european perception of what constitutes a long drive amazes me when Europeans come to Canada to visit - everything is far here).
Better to compare the inexpensive daily driver on both continents. I wouldn't want to have to use a 2CV here for any length of time and everthing inexpensive and Italian, French or British failed miserably here 'cause their products were pretty marginal for the climate and driving conditions. Germans and Swedes fared better, though with the exception of VW, the cars were never cheap.
I say this not to excuse the mostly awful cars the big three have created, - (they badly needed the wake-up call from the Japanese) only to suggest other reasons why things evolved the way they did.
IMO, the base model 5.0 mustang (early '80s) was one of of the worst examples of the kind of thinking you describe. You have to admit though, the Corvette sure has come a long way.

Better get to work now.

Grusse.

Small hint, Dave. Click on that "email" icon in the reply immediately prior to yours. MikeZ lives near an area where 914s are very common, relatively speaking, and don't suffer much from the weather.

--DD

Hey Dave/DDS....I've been known to find a few cars and send them north and east from here....:D

NOW you tell me! I bought two 'teeners, (we) conceived then had twins then I bought the lotus so I don't think there will be more cars (or kids) in the near future. I'm going to pass Mike's email address on to someone though. If I'd been involved in this BBS before buying the first teener, I'd have bought it in the southwest for sure.

Hey that last bit is pretty well back on topic.

Everyone (almost) says that if you put a V8 in a 914 you have to upgrade the brakes because of the added weight.
No one says that if you plan to carry a passenger that weighs more than 200 lbs. you must upgrade the brakes.
Why is that? Just another case of an urban 914 myth being passed down through the masses.
Upgrading the brakes is a good idea on any 914, but is no more manditory on a V8 914 that a stock 914.
If the stock brakes are in perfect order, they work well. If they are not in good mechanical condition, you need to fix them.

Legal disclaimer: if you drive like an idiot you need to upgrade the brakes, with either a V8 or a type 4.
The brakes will not allow you to get away with driving stupid forever, but may buy you some time :-)

Roland wrote: "Hell even the top of the line ZL1 engines for race cars died faster then they could be raced."

Kinda' like the Boxster and 996 engines that Porsche makes today, eh? Oh, that's right, they do make a race motor for the 996.

It is my opinion that Porsche quit F1 racing when they did because they realized they were stuck with a 2 valve air cooled engine and couldn't get enough power out of it. No cure, such development over design, as found on the 911. The TAG engine of a later era was water cooled, of course.

As for the general state of American engineering, get a grip.
We do what we need or want to do. If Bill Gates was to fund an an all american F1 team, I have no doubt that it would be a winner in 3 or 4 years.

You fellas apparently needed help from the French and Brits to make a decent jet airliner. Boorish of me to bring it up, isn't it?

Having said that, there's only one flag on the moon and it was put there 25 years ago.......with a bit of help from a few Germans :-).

JP, you provocateur! 'a bit of help from a few Germans'? I almost took the bait. Bill Gates F1 program?
Teed up nicely. Very funny.
I though the UK was the home of ironic humour.

Hello

@sammyg2

OK thats a american view but it is a difference if you have to brake down from 200 km/h or 250 km/h

It is a difference if you have a curb wight from 950 Kg to a curb wight from 1200 kg and if you can accelerate the 1/4 within 14 instead 17 secounds you also have more force to brake down while you sorten the time for the brake to vent the heat out.

The 914/4 brake system is good enough for a full loaded car ( According to the specs total wight ) and blast down the alps.
If you are down Timmersjoch the brakes do smell hot and you need to drive them cool but they are not starting to fade if you know how to use them.

So as people in the US are not allowed to exceed 65 mph nor have twisting passes in there mountains any investment into the brakesystem is wastet money. I even think that the car will still outbreak many other cars and SUV produced today.

The story is very simple; Big horses can bring you faster into trouble and good brakes are the only thing that will bring you out of it.
Thtas why Porsche always had the best aviable brakes on there cars. In 1969 a 4 disc brakesystem wasn´t typical for a small sportscar. Nowerdays this is standard.

One fact is that a good prepped 914/4 brake system will work from average speed like a big red system. The only benefit from the big brakes is there higher heat capasity and this counts if you are braking down from high speed or have to turn more energy into heat.

BTW the 914/6 is some 50 kg heavier and has 110 HP witch is some 10 HP more to the Row 2,0. Topspeed is some 10 km/h faster and Porsche used bigger ventet brakes and even slight bigger pistons/pads on rear. Porsche must have been grazy ?
Scared that Poeple drive ther 914 like a Porsche ?
Thats only a 50 kg/ 10 km/h upstep. A good V8 is some 100 kg plus 50 km/h upstep.

@J P Stein

Kinda' like the Boxster and 996 engines that Porsche makes today, eh? Oh, that's right, they do make a race motor for the 996.

The GM ZL1 engines where built for racecars and not very much hit the roads ( I think 25 vettes and 52 Camaros ). So those had been production specials. They failed becourse they where just copied steel blocks. Anyhow noone was expecting that a race engine should live long. It should win and if wight is a problem and you always in the middle or end row you have to make a step forward. If you have speed then you look to fix the other problems.

A comperable Porsches would be the 911 RS or 911 GT3 ?

Yet the 996 GT3 and the Turbo actually don´t use the same engine like the normal 996. Porsche makes very special engines for those cars, full alluminium, dry sump and those engines are blowing up all the time. Sure becourse its still the old junk they use since the first 911.

The reason why Porsche isn´t racing with the Lokasil are very difficult. Fact is That Porsche is still developing a race engine from that block but they are lazy becourse the old engine is still competive ( was untill the BMW V8 came ) and the engeneering works on other projects ( Audis, Bentleys, maybe the SUV ? )

It is my opinion that Porsche quit F1 racing when they did because they realized they were stuck with a 2 valve air cooled engine and couldn't get enough power out of it. No cure, such development over design, as found on the 911. The TAG engine of a later era was water cooled, of course.

Maybe thats one reason. Porsche had very deep knowledge into 4 valve engines and just look at the old constructions Porsche made for Mercedes and later for Auto Union. 4 valve Luiquidcooled.

Like saíd the main reason was that Dr. Porsche didn´t like to spend money into a race car without the chance that the parts used there will have a direct benefit for the production cars. He liked more the idear that the wining car could be beought next moday in the next showroom. The F1 cars needed complete other engeneered chassis and also many other things turned into very specialized items. The 8 Cyl wasn´t a problem. Still had enough power and the race driver could switch off the alternator and the fan to gain some 50 HP for several secounds.

I think if you read some books about that you will see that Porsche did quit for many reasons but not becourse they feared to loose. I think Dr Porsche didn´t liked the monoposto races personaly. In the first years Porsche was in the Formula 2 and used the RSK to compete with lighter monopostos. Those cars scored several wins and when a guy named von trips mastered a laptime 2 secounds under the time from Fangio in a Maserati ( the RSK had the new 150 HP engine ) they focused onto geting into F1 buy just blowing up the Chassis and engeneer a competive flat 8. Those cars wher constructet to last longer then the competition and the old Porsche tactic was to hunt them untill they broke. Well the Coopers wher good candidates untill one day a guy named Bruce Mc Larren manged to make a lasting Cooper. Well i think i could write a book about it but Ludvigsen allready made one.
Maybe you can ask some old american F1 race drivers who where in the Porsche team about the backgrounds.


As for the general state of American engineering, get a grip.
We do what we need or want to do. If Bill Gates was to fund an an all american F1 team, I have no doubt that it would be a winner in 3 or 4 years.


OK the leading wining engine in Formula 1 is a Ford V8, tell me more about that engine ;).
I would welcome Mr. Gates to make a all american race team the problem is that american racedrivers don´t like to drive all around the world and Ford is allready in the biz since years and Ford wasn´t short on money witch is maybe a part why Nasser had to go. If you analyze the backgrounds...

The best would be Bill buys a competive raceteam and asks Porsche to suppley the engines ;) There must be some american racedrivers out there. There is a young man maybe around 15 years who maybe will bring the US to new glory. And his skin is much darker then Sennas. Tiger Woods on the race tracks !

You fellas apparently needed help from the French and Brits to make a decent jet airliner. Boorish of me to bring it up, isn't it?

Why ? thats europe. Everyone has given the best and engeneering plus production is shared. Thats a major throwback in making money plus the single parts must be built more precise then on a "normal" airplane. I don´t think that germany has to be the best or rule the world. I don´t think we have to live on a island.

BTW the Airbuscockpit is engeneered by Porsche. Most Pilots like the ergonomics but most don´t like to fly by wire and loose the board engeneerer..

The first flag on the moon ? Wasn´t that more then 30 years ago ? 25 years ago russia nd the US met in otherspace ( trading alcahol and porn magazines ? )

In fact many nations where involved into that project but the american tax payer gave the most money and the american nation burdend the load to fail so it is fair they raised there flag there. But like said a small step for a man but a giant step for mankind. Didn´t said a small step for a man but a giant step for america ?

It is time to think in other dimensions one day the "ferengis" will show up

Grüsse

I think the ZL1 wasn't a big mover (volume wise) because of the price. The option added around $4k (as I recall) to the price of the car....BIG bucks in 1969. It was a derivative of the L88 iron block....not many or them were sold, either. Why? Because they they were nearly undrivable on the street. Though rated at 435hp, actual
power was closer to 500hp. The 12:1 compression ratio was "edgy" for the street gas, even back then.

I built one (L88) for a friend back in 68'. Piecing a long block together, all from a Chevy dealer, the price was under $650 (iron heads). After market goodies to finish it off were under $200. A test drive in this 68 El Camaino showed that
one had to be very circumspect with applications of the go pedal.
WAAAAY to much power for that car and those tires.

As for the ZL1, it was good enough to win one European race in the Chaparral and do well in several more. They were let down by their transmission often, but seldom by their engine. AFAIK, Chaparral never used the Reynolds block.
McLaren used them to good effect in Can AM, also, but switched to the Reynolds block in search of more cubic inches.

Typically, the FIA banned banned the Ford and Chevy big bangers
from competition in their *world* championship events. Welcome to *our* world, just don't win.

I've read the "official" reasons for Porsches withdrawl from F1.
I've also read Dan Gurney's comments on the lack of power from the Porsche engine. Books are available on this side of the pond and some actually read them. That Porsche knew 4 valve technology is not in question, but that's not what they "brung to the dance".

The cam covers of the Cosworth F1 motor say "Ford" just like the Ilmore F1 cam covers say "Mercerdes-Benz"(sp?) :-), but used to say "Chevrolet" for CART :-).