Snubbed by VW!

[prattrc]

I'm in the process of replacing my clutch, and I'm going to be out of town for the next week or so and have not been able to find that 12 point CV bolt tool, and since I'm young and impatient and this car is my daily, I decided to check around local shops to see how much they would charge just for the labor since I have all the parts.

I called two VW specialty shops and one Porsche shop during my lunch, the results are as follows:

Porsche shop- "Yeah, we can do it for you. It'd run about $550 for labor. We have to add a premium for cars that old." When my heart started beating again, I thanked him and hung up.

VW shop #1- "We're not interested in doing that job at this time."

VW shop #2- "I know it's technically a Volkswagen, but we only work on real Volkswagens."

I've heard of NARP syndrome, but how about that? NARV?

Maybe I should have one of the 911 guys straighten these VW shops out! Guess I'll do it when I get back.

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

The tool is easy to find. We may even carry it. I know Snap-On does, and VW Bug specialty shops definitely do. It's the same tool they use for CV joint bolts.


--DD

[prattrc]

Yeah, I'll get the tool. I was getting impatient and tried to get an estimate of how much cash I would be saving vs the time and effort.

Snap-On, Mac, Lisle, and Pelican all make or carry it, but no one in town here, not even the VW shops. That's why I was frustrated and called around.

After these estimates, I'm convinced to do it myself, so I'll be ordering it from Pelican, as always...

[COLDBASS]

Originally posted by prattrc
I'm in the process of replacing my clutch, and I'm going to be out of town for the next week or so and have not been able to find that 12 point CV bolt tool, and since I'm young and impatient and this car is my daily, I decided to check around local shops to see how much they would charge just for the labor since I have all the parts.

I called two VW specialty shops and one Porsche shop during my lunch, the results are as follows:

Porsche shop- "Yeah, we can do it for you. It'd run about $550 for labor. We have to add a premium for cars that old." When my heart started beating again, I thanked him and hung up.

VW shop #1- "We're not interested in doing that job at this time."

VW shop #2- "I know it's technically a Volkswagen, but we only work on real Volkswagens."

I've heard of NARP syndrome, but how about that? NARV?

Maybe I should have one of the 911 guys straighten these VW shops out! Guess I'll do it when I get back.

prattrc,

Yep, I know the feeling. Some mainstream Porsche folks snub us, some mainstream VW folks snub us. The only safe haven is among Type IV folks...to this group, I guess it really doesn't matter what type of vehicle as long it has a Type IV motor then we are all equal...Hang in there bro' don't let it get to you...

[roadtrp204]

Quotes like that usually mean 'never done one of those before and don't want to spend the whole time I have to do the job to figure it out.' Pulling the tranny/replacing the clutch is less work for a 914 than any aircooled VW or other Porsche. $550 is 7.3 hours at $75/hour, a full days labor just to change the clutch! Extra high prices and bs excuses equals we don't want to do the job or we don't know how to do the job efficiently enough to make a profit.

[philinjax]

Prattrc,
The fact is, $45 bucks an hour is not rape. One guy is not going to pull the engine-tranny at a commercial shop by himself. For the most part, two guys would be working on the job. That's about $450.00 right there. And then there is the risk/likelyhood that there will be some unforseen difficulty that will drive up the time to get the work done. These shops are in business to make money, but try to explain that to the client, who wants the work done as if he/she ought to be treated as a relative. Face it, if the shop doesn't make a profit, it's shut down time, almost immediately.
Phil

[BKOMAR]

Gimme a break! 10 man hours to change a clutch???? I find this ridiculous! Any shop worth beans SHOULD be able to have the engine out and the trans /eng split in about 2 hours MAX! If the parts are on hand....putting it all back together and back in in about another hour and a half. Come on....little ol bonehead me with a Walmart jack and jackstands can have the engine out in an hour BY MYSELF... If I have a buddy hangin around helping...things go even quicker! Am I off the mark guys? Its not like we're pullin a V-12 from a Testarossa! I would be interested to see what the time/labor book says it takes man hours wise. I think that each time you do it...it gets quicker!

[prattrc]

Phil, I wasn't really complaining about the shop's estimate. I didn't even disagree with the rate at the Porsche shop, in fact, I don't even know what the rate was (it may have been $550/hr and they expected to knock it out in an hour). I do think it's kind of silly to charge more for an older car. Regardless, at least they were willing to do the job. I wasn't willing to pay, so I was able to quantify that time and effort vs cash relationship, and time and effort won out.

However, I had a clutch replacement and transmission rebuild for $1500 on my 72, that was parts, labor, everything. I understand the capitalist side of it to be sure, but $550 in labor just for pulling the tranny? 10 hours at $55? I can probably do it myself in 10 hours. Well, maybe not. I'll clock it and let you know.

[mike mueller]

With help, you should be able to drop the tranny, replace the clutch and reinstall the tranny in less than 4 hours.

I helped a buddy change the clutch in his V8 914 and we did it in less than 2 hours, that's including BS around.......

[turboteener]

Guys you can change the clutch without ever having to remove the tranny from the car. Remove the muffler, unbolt the tranny from the case, remove the shift rod, clutch cable and ground strap. Hang the tranny by the axles against the heat exchangers. voila' quick swap. Dealers did this for years.

[Pritchard]

I'm no expert on this, but when I have had to remove the clutch and flywheel to reinstall the shims behind the flywheel to set the crank rod play (talk about being upset!) or to change the clutch, I put a jack under the engine and one under the tranny, disconnect the two, slide the tranny back and have about 6 to 8 inches to work. Only takes a couple of hours to be driving again.

Good luck
Pritchard

PS- having broken a couple of exhaust studs, I would be careful about letting the tranny sit onthe heat exchangers.

[green71]

Ray - If you're still looking for the tool when you get back, check out a home improvement store like Home Depot or Lowe's. That's where I got the CV bolt tool.

Something that might be worth considering is replacing the 12-point CV bolts with conventional cap head allen bolts. That's what I have on my car; the 12-point bolts that WERE on my fan hub were shallow & easy to strip. I was lucky to get them out. Seems like the allen bolts are more robust.

Mark

[philinjax]

Hey, guys,
I can pull the engine/tranny by myself to replace whatever, in a day, including a clutch. In fact, I have, several times but, that's not the point. If I owned a shop, had an employee or two, paid for insurance and all the other overhead, I would give an estimate of $550.00 for the labor too. Especially if I have a kid show up with his beat up 914. (I'm not referring to you, prattrc.)
Gotta make a profit.
Business is business and love is bull****.

Phil

[RichMason]

I think most of you guys know how shops (esp. dealers)work. There are very large detailed books that list how long an average (or even novice) mechanic would take to do a job. This is the labor time you are charged at $65 or whatever an hour. The mechanic is paid less than that an hour but he gets to bill the full amount of time, providing an excellent incentive to finish the job faster. This means more money for the shop and the mechanic (of course the shop and the mechanic take a hit if it takes longer although they always come up with a way of passing the additional time on to the customer. It is routine for mechanics (and lawyers ) to bill more than 7 or 8 hours in a day because of this practice. A friend of mine works in an english car garage where they do MGBs (nightmare) and other old nasty cars. They routinely charge book time plus more as a surcharge for working on such pieces of ? (even if we love them an MGB is still not built to German standards of quality). My friend made more than $50K last year as a result.

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

Green71, the triple-square holes in the bolt heads should not be shallow; they should be the same depth as regular Allen head bolts. I'm betting that they were partly filled up with crud that had been sucked into the fan over the years.

Chances are that Allen-head bolts would have been filled up similarly.

The solution is no further away than your favorite can of carb cleaner or penetrating oil. Use the little hose to spray this stuff into the bolt-head. Then put the correct tool into the recess in the bolt head, and give it a firm tap with a mallet to make sure it's seated. It should come out pretty reasonably.

The triple-square bolts actually have more surface area to distribute the tightening/loosening torque across, so they should be a bit less likely to strip if you get the tool fully engaged.

--DD

[Pritchard]

With the problems people are having with the triple square headed bolts in the CV's, would it be sensible to replace them with grade-8 hex-head bolts?

This is what I did and am curious if I have done something to weaken this area.

Pritchard

[roadtrp204]

Allens are fine if the proper grade is used. Personally I have found the triple square alot harder to round out (tip fully seated in the bolt) than allen and the tools don't break like torx. VW is still using these bolts in their new models and maybe its just because of the popularity of these cars (porsche/VW) torwards the west coast, but I can usually find a kit (6mm-12mm) of triple square bits at most chain parts stores.

Or did you mean regular type bolts with six sides to the head, I don't think you could fit them between the boot flange.

[Germain]

hex headed bolts don't fit well. I changed mine to allen instead of 12 point.

$550 to pull an engine and put in a new clutch seams expensive. I had a complete clutch (pressure plate, throw out, ect) no flywheel replaced in a front wheel drive Dodge Stealth. To the tune of $650. A sunbird done for $450 (including parts). Now I do them myself for a lot more then that (figure in beer money).

[Jim T]

I doubt that there are many, if any, cars that have a clutch that is easier to change than the 914.

Part of the benefits of having a very simple car with the transmission hanging off the back!

An estimate of $550 means "we don't want to do the work."

I think charging 4 hours would be reasonable (although they would in actuality probably do it in 2-3 hours).

[philinjax]

Jim T,
No offense but a $550 estimate means "We are not going to loose money on this job."
Look at your own estimate, 2 or 3 hours. I assume you mean elapsed time for the job. Is one guy going to do all the work by himself? I think not. What is the currect labor rate for this kind of work? The labor estimate does not seem to be much off reality.
Phil