sway bars

[Betty Church]

Setting up a coverted 914/6 race car. The car came to me with a fixed front sway bar and no rear bar. In testing the car tends to heavily understeer with the front bar attached. Unhooking the bar produces a much quicker car, almost too quick to oversteer. I would like to have a wider range of adjustment rather than just on/off. Having raced several other cars with adjustable sway bars, my question is has anyone tried adjustable front and rear bars? If so, what size and where can these be found?

[JWest]

Here's one option - available from the host of this BBS. Front and rear adjustable sway bars.

http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/shopcart/9144/por_9144_racing_main.htm

Do you know what size torsion bars are up front?
Do you know what rate springs are in back?
How about the type of shocks?

With this info there are some people here with the experience to get you real close to a good setup right out of the box.

[John Rogers]

On our race 914, I use an adjustable front (22mm) and the factory rear. But there are a few more things to consider: I use Goodyear slicks at 24 PSI, same size front and rear, 23mm t-bar front and 300# springs rear, a GT limited slip in the tranny, Koni Sport shocks and I have a stroker four engine so I don't have the weight in the middle you do. With all that said, my car is pretty neutral and very flat in corners although I can easily break the rear end loose if I throttle steer too hard. The weight and balance of the car is important as mine is heavier than stock since it is steel and has a cage and full interior, but the weight is also exactly 50-50. The general rule is if it has a six or limited slip then use front and rear sway bars, fours w/o limited slip use front or none. Good luck.

[rfoulds]

I have the Weltmeister adjustable 19mm on the front and the 16mm on the back. Bilstein shocks and struts, 140# springs.

2.7 litre six, 200hp,

the bars make a HUGE difference. the car is very flat and nutrual in hard cornering, but I can dial in oversteer when I want.

Buy them here at PP and you can get all the correct brackets as well.

What area are you in? Where will you be racing??

[Betty Church]

Thanks for the quick response! I don't believe there are torsion bars on the car. I have coil overs with Bilstein shocks/yellow. My mechanic is attempting to find out spring rates in rear.

It's starting to make more sense now. When I bought the car is was a 2.0 and it's been converted to a 3.2. That would explain why the front sway bar but no rear. With the fiberglass body kit and stripped interior, the car weighs about 2000lb.

Thanks also for the quick reference to the appropriate PP catalogue! Talk about making life easy.

Although the car doesn't currently have LSD, the tranny will come apart this winter and it can be added then. By spring this car should rock!

Thanks again for the info. Now I know where to go with my quetions. This is a great BB.

[jtf914]

Here are a couple of pics of Betty's 914 from last month's PCA HPDC:




Justin

[John Rogers]

I could guess a six conversion like yours without a limited slip is a little wild to drive. When you get it installed the handling characteristics will change somewhat since the outside wheel will now make the car accelerate much harder out of turns/corners. I'd recommend putting in the rear sway bar and then waiting till the tranny is done so you can test other things without having to undo something and waste money. Good luck.

[chrisreale]

Betty, you have a nice looking car. can somebody explain what exactly torsion bars do? I was under the impression that they were essential, but Betty said the car doesn't have them...? Thanks, Chris

[Betty Church]

I had no idea anyone took pictures that weekend. Imagine my surprise when I see them on Pelican Parts! Thanks Justin.

I'll know more after this weekend. It's probably the last opportunity to test the car this year. We've hooked the front sway bar back up to see what happens on a larger/faster track. I'll probably unhook it and test that setup as well to get a better feel of what I'll be looking to change.

As for the car being a handful. It's not really. Seems to be more of a go-cart. Hugs the track well and stays level. Of course talk to me after this weekend. Apparently there are numerous bets going on as to what lap of what session I first spin it. Notice I said first. There also seems to be some discussion of how many times it will spin.

The swaybars, tranny rebuild, LSD and some cage work are on the list for winter upgrades. Then some more testing next spring.

As for what torsion bars do? I doubt I can explain it as I'm not a mechanic, don't pretend to be a mechanic, have a really good mechanic. Apparently if you put in coilovers you don't use torsion bars? Can someone enlighten us?

[jtf914]

Quick and dirty:

In a stock set up the torsion bars act like springs. They have splines on both ends and as the front goes up and down the bars provide resistance by twisting. The thicker the bar the stiffer the suspension (increased resistance). In Betty's coilover set up the torsion bars have been removed and replaced by springs on the actual strut assembly.

I imagine it's easier to corner balance and adjust spring rates with coilovers than it is with torsion bars. Maybe someone else can tell us about the advantages of coilovers.

Justin

[John Rogers]

I forgot to mention something else pretty important: check to see if the rear suspension console and frame has been renforced? Your mechanic can tell you that as with a big six and those large tires the load on the trailing arms will be much higher than with that little four that was in it. The front end can be converted to coil-overs and is easy to check, just look at the front shocks and if there are springs around them then you have coil-over front suspension. Not to many casual track cars have this as it involves renforced upper shock mounts and a good sum of $$$$.

[Betty Church]

Oh I know about $$$$ now. This started out as a cheap little track car that if I banged it up we could just repair and run again. I don't necessarily have the word stupid on my forehead but I'd second a big naive. Oh well. Although the original car I bought came with cage and fiberglass body it really had some hidden problems that we've had to address along the way. The good news is I'm ending up with a seriously cool track car that will keep up with/outrun most cars and it has street tags (historic). I remember saying "I don't need to be the fastest car out there, I just don't want to be the slowest". Well I definitely ended up in the faster category; and poorer.

I think the basic problem is that I've spent the last few years in fairly new track/race cars and have an appreciation for newer technology. Hence the coilovers, boxster brakes, etc. and why I'm looking for adjustable sway bars. I like the ability to change the suspension a little at the track to fit conditions and different courses. Since I'm not a mechanic the adjustable sway bars are the easiest change I can make and I can do it myself.

[URY914]

Betty,
After rereading your posts I think you or the readers here may be getting the front and rear shocks and springs mixed up. When you said your car has coil overs, I think that everyone here thinks that the front has been converted to coil over springs. Are the coil overs you are talking about on the front or rear? From looking at you car I doubt you have FRONT coilovers spring and shocks.
Paul

[Betty Church]

Paul,
I'm not sure how you can tell that from the picture. Actually the car does have coil over springs/shocks all around. The suspension setup/brakes on the car originally were not acceptable for the bigger motor so we chose to go the route that will allow us to max out the engine in the future without additional suspension mods. I know for a fact that the front has 300lb springs. It's the rear that is in question.

[campbellcj]

What size/type is the current front swaybar? It seems unlikely that the stock 15-16mm non-adjustable bar would have been left on the car with all that other work done (i.e. coil-overs).

My point is - maybe it is a gigantic non-adjustable bar, in which case going to a 22mm adjustable one might do the trick in killing your oversteer and giving you some tuning capability.

Of course, sooner or later the rear spring rate will have to be figured out (or just spend $90 on new springs with the desired rate).

By the way - what coil-overs do you have, and do you like them so far? My car is headed down that path eventually - I am leaning towards the Bilstein RSR setup. Reservoir units like JRZ/Leda etc are too rich for my blood at this point. ($1K/corner)

[URY914]

Betty,
I stand corrected. It is just that coilovers are a relatively complicated modification on a 914 and not one which is done very often. I only though from looking at your car was that the car didn't have super wide wheels (9" and up) and wide bodywork. Most 914's with front coilovers are pure race cars with slicks. I'd like to see a picture of your front trunk to see how the struct plates are tied into the car. Post one if you can.

[Betty Church]

No problem. Looks can be deceiving. What you are seeing in the picture is the street/rain wheels & tires. Those are 8/16 & 9/16. I have to wait until spring to get the race wheels/slicks as I've dumped so much $$$ into this project already. Maybe Santa will be really good to me this year? The fiberglass body that is on the car now is okay. If/when I break something I'll probably go with wider flares and get away from the one piece front fender/nose deal. With a 3.2 we're trying to be careful about not"over-tiring" the car. I think with slicks on the 9/10 wheel combination I'll have enough tire to control the car without slowing it down.

I'll see if I can't get some pics this weekend of the front for you.

Leaving now to pick up the car and head to the track!

[John Rogers]

Check out this link for a picture of what the parts look like. They also have the instructions for installing the parts.
http://www.smartcamber.com/