New-to-me 924S

rbuswell · rbuswell's Garage

Looks like I will become a new participant on this forum. I have bought a well-used 1987 924S 5-speed with 160k miles that has had good care but the seller said blew the water pump. The pump had only been replaced 25k miles before so it doesn’t sound like he was being negligent. The car was a daily driver (about 60 miles per day) and the seller has owned it for 14 years. He didn’t want to spend a bunch of money on it again. It has been driven coast-to-coast at least three times. He took it to a shop called RPM near him for maintenance and repairs.

He described the coolant system failure as happening when was driving down “the mountain” where he lives. The temp started to rise and he saw some steam. He got off the road as soon as it was safe and looked under the hood. He saw steam and coolant coming out of where the water pump is located. He is confident that there was no engine damage although he hasn’t had the car diagnosed. It was parked about 8 mos. ago with a full tank of gas. What I do know: It is a no-rust, never wrecked car. Rough on cosmetics. It has nearly new Michelin tires and good brakes. The seller said it probably needs a tune-up since the gas mileage wasn’t as good as it has been in the past. It has a minor leak in the power steering system. It burns a little oil. He used to live in CA and the car passed emissions there which are more stringent than CO. Keep in mind that he told me all this after I bought the car so he had no incentive to misrepresent anything.

The car is in VA and I'm in CO so I'm thinking of making it road worthy and driving it back. I have AAA, a cell phone and Pelican so I figure I’m covered.

My son lives in NC, about 280 miles from the car's location, and has access to a good auto repair shop for free and a trailer. I’m not really sure what I’m going to do with the car so I only want to fix now what will get me home safely. I'd rather spend money on parts than shipping. I may have three or four days max to get everything done before I begin the trip back.

I’m formulating a process and parts list to get it ready to drive nearly 1,500 miles. I am looking for your expert opinions on things that make the most sense to replace and do.

grendiers · 05-23-2018, 05:35 AM

Um, 3-4 weeks maybe! I wouldn't do this, too many sources of pain in that car. At least trailer it the 280 miles to the free shop. Water pumps don't 'blow up', they'll leak coolant, or the bearing will freeze up. The latter of which usually takes out the timing belt, and subsequently, you have bent valves.

v2rocket_aka944 · 05-23-2018, 08:58 AM

buy a spare cylinder head and have it refreshed ahead of time (valve job, surface ground flat, new valve guides and stem seals)...maybe $350 all in.

buy a remanufactured water pump and belt kit from ZIMS auto in TX. (sorry pelican)
buy a head gasket kit from Zims or Pelican.

have all these things ready when you arrive, get the car to the NC shop on a trailer.
swap your fresh head onto the block, set timing and water pump and hit the road.
sell the "old" head as a rebuildable core.

with all the parts and tools on hand you can do a full HG, belt and WP job in a single easy day.

rbuswell · rbuswell's Garage

Sorry for the linquistic snafu, grendiers. I, of course, wasn't speaking of it grenading or anything. Sounds like both of you guys assume that the head and valves are toast. Which also means the pistons could be toast too. Is this something peculiar about a water pump failure on a 944 (interference) engine? I'm pretty sure the car was running fine when he shut it off (other than the steam and coolant loss, of course) but I will double check with the seller. It didn't sound like there was interference caused by the timing belt slipping or busting. Other non-Porsche interference engines I've heard of with a water pump failure just lose fluid and steam up so this sounded like a classic seal or gasket failure. But that's why I'm asking you guys.

The seller is a REALLY nice guy and would probably let me leave the car there for awhile but I don't want to be an imposition. I would not try to do any repair to the car before getting it to the shop. I would trailer it to my son's place and then the shop. I would of course first determine if the belt is still there and in time. If after all the usual health tests like compression and leak down I would decide whether to just tow it home and plan to rebuild it. If the head is involved at all, it wouldn't be prudent to try driving the car 1,500 miles regardless. Then again I'm kind of a chicken.

Thanks for the other hints on sourcing stuff and timeline estimates. I am curious why you recommend the rebuilt WP kit over new, v2rocket_aka944? I'm not opposed to saving money so I'm assuming you've had good results with rebuilt. I've known rebuilt parts to actually be better than brand new. Obviously you want the WP to last well past the next belt replacement cycle. This one didn't, obviously.

edredas · edredas's Garage

Water pumps are usually first thing to fail when the belt was tensioned improperly. Even with auto-tensioners you must double check the tension since the belt will put too much force against the water pump pulley causing it to seize rather quickly. Every time I've seen a seized pump I've found that the belt was far too tight, but this hasn't always resulted in bent valves. In most cases the belt doesn't break however no coolant will be circulating causing the engine to overheat quickly and coolant to spew out of the overflow. I hope that helps!

rbuswell · rbuswell's Garage

Thanks, edredas.

The seller said the belt and pump had been replaced by a reputable German car shop about 25K miles earlier. Relying on memory, but I think the belt interval on a 944 engine is 40k miles so clearly something unexpected happened. Would overtightening/bearing failure also result in the coolant leak and steam coming from the area of the pump? Would the pump survive 25k miles after overtightening before bearing failure?

edredas · edredas's Garage

It all really depends on multiple factors, I've seen them fail after as little as 5k miles. That one bent the shaft without any leaks, while others lasted nearly 30k miles and the entire pulley broke completely off with coolant spewing everywhere. That said, I've seen even cheap pumps last well over 40k miles with proper tension. Some pumps I've removed were original and still going with well over 100k miles on them.

v2rocket_aka944 · 05-23-2018, 04:25 PM

water could be leaking out the pump, or the HG could have gone somehow - that was my "worst case" recommendation.

i have only ever used ZIMS rebuilt pumps on my own car, and the cars of my dozens of customers over the last 11 years wrenching on 944s. never a problem, and for $100 you can't go wrong.

i have heard plenty of horror stories about people using the cheaper "new" pumps though.

if you insist on NEW, get it from Porsche directly, not an off brand.

9FF · 05-23-2018, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rbuswell

...The temp started to rise and he saw some steam. He got off the road as soon as it was safe and looked under the hood. He saw steam and coolant coming out of where the water pump is located.

...I'm pretty sure the car was running fine when he shut it off (other than the steam and coolant loss, of course) but I will double check with the seller...

The posters here are being a little pessimistic in their posts. If you just saw steam from the water pump area and the engine was running fine, there is no way your timing belt broke. When a belt breaks the engine stops dead. It’s likely you have to replace the water pump but inspect the area first, it could simply be a loose hose clamp or damaged hose which would be a cheap 5 minute fix.

rbuswell · rbuswell's Garage

Thanks to all for your insights. I'll keep you posted when I actually have the car in my possession.

rbuswell · rbuswell's Garage

As I thought I might, I chickened out and towed the car home. The trip went pretty smoothly. This turned out to be a very smart move. Here's what I found out so far:

Engine and belts are still in time. Still not sure if the water pump is bad. Bought new ones anyway.
Plugs are a perfect golden brown. PO claimed about a quart per thousand but no smoke. I'm not sure where the oil's going but it doesn't appear to be on the plugs.
Clutch went straight to the floor but wouldn't come back up. Assume a bad or dry master and/or slave cylinder.
"Deferred" maintenance all over the place. This doesn't bother me too much since I can now put in good parts and take my time. I would have been pretty uncomfortable driving it 1,600 miles that way.
Battery was sitting in about an inch of water. Started a thread on this issue.
Many niggling electrical and adjustment problems.
Front end had been hit. I probably was in denial on this point. Other than needing paint, the replacement parts are pretty good. I just need to restore proper spacing and alignment.
As my detailer says, "Black isn't a color, it's a career." Hope I can revive the paint.
Plenty of rusty fasteners and dirt everywhere. I forget that most people just don't love their cars like we do.
I'm keeping this car in perspective. It is a dirt cheap 924S with lots of upside. I wanted a driver that I don't worry about driving. This one fits the bill.

Lewis774 · 07-22-2018, 09:47 AM

How’s it going with the 924?

rbuswell · rbuswell's Garage

Lots of encouraging things about the car and a few unexpected challenges:

There is no way the timing belts and pump were replaced when the shop said they did the work. It was so rusted and corroded in there that it was probably five years or more since the last timing belt/pump set was done, not 25k miles ago like his latest work order said. Given how difficult it was to break the front pulley bolt lose, they may have given up and just charged the PO for the work.
Bruce Arnn (of ArnnWorx fame) offered lots of help. I emailed him because I was afraid I would break his flywheel lock tool. He assured me that no one has ever broken that tool (and he'd replace it if I did) and that he's had to actually use his leg to get enough torque on a pulley bolt before. I eventually used a 6 foot extension on the breaker bar and an impact socket and it came lose. A good test of Craftsman tools. Bruce has given me several tips on other systems I'm working on. What a wonderful guy!
The belt tensioner was completely rusted tight and needed to come apart. I'm still sourcing the circlip and a way to compress the spring to put it back together.
The water pump and top water elbow have what appear to be original gaskets that were a real bugger to get cleaned up and ready.
There were a couple bad belt rollers that I'm still waiting to receive new from the mail order dealer I use. It is truly amazing the car ran. Proves how tough Porsches are built. I'm confident the car will run though. It was still in time and the plugs were a perfect light brown.
There was a leaking clutch master cylinder and a missing return spring in the clutch pedal cluster. I bought a new master and also rebuilt the slave to play it safe. Awaiting the spring and gasket between the master and the firewall. This is the only procedure so far that has been difficult. Otherwise, I've found the car to be pretty easy to work on.
The fuel filter looked about ten years old so I replaced it. Drained the nearly full tank of gas at the same time and ran a few gallons in each of my other cars so it probably will not present any problems since the cars did fine. The PO said the fuel had only been in there for about six months.
One of the plug wires came apart when I pulled it so I replaced the set.
As a precaution I took the alternator and starter to an old-school shop to have them tested and rebuilt. The alternator would have failed in a couple months or less had I not taken them in. Good thing I had them rebuilt.
The driver's door lock was replaced but the locksmith did a shoddy job trying to match the lock to the original key. I've received a referral for a locksmith who is very good in Denver.
The rear hatch lock appeared to be bad too but it was only in need of adjustment. I'm still working on getting a good seal around the hatch. I'm trying to salvage the current seal since a new one is kind of pricey.
The car was filthy dirty inside but has cleaned up pretty nicely so far. I removed the seats to find a treasure trove of crap. I plan to do a full shampoo of the rugs and upholstery.
The dash will need to be recovered. It looks like the kit from Classic 9 Leather is the way to go.
The A/C has not worked for years so it is a candiate for a rebuild with barrier hoses. A black car really needs A/C. This may be the Achille's Heal in the project, expense-wise. I'm not sure how much of this work I will be able to do myself.
The P/S system leaks badly. I will rebuild the pump as a precaution since I can't tell if it is part of the leaking problem. The return hose from the fluid tank to the pump appears to be cracked and leaking. It turns out the factory part in the PET is way too short for my car. The car has a weird, molded hose which is much longer so it may be a 924 part. Any ideas on this problem are appreciated.
The car had been hit in the front but the replacement parts look good and will only need to be realligned. The paint on those parts is terrible though so I will strip them and prime them for the time being. See below about a possible repaint.
It is missing the right front fender liner part that is supposed to be in the front of the fender well. The part doesn't appear in the PET so no one has been able to help me identify it. It could be there isn't actually a part there but it sure seems un-Porsche-like.
Lots of missing or incorrect fasteners everywhere you look. This will result in more than a few visits to AAA Metric, I'm sure.
When I put the battery in to test a few things, the headlight pop-up motor got VERY hot. Don't understand why it didn't blow a fuse.
When I did some of the other testing, it seemed likely that P/W and sunroof motors and other electricals will need a thorough going-over.
Going with a radio delete until I decide what to do about a radio. The PO did a pretty bad butchering of the wiring.
I am encouraged that the paint may be brought back to life to the standard of a "bomber" car this will become. I'm falling in love with the car enough that I may actually spring for a full repaint someday. The car is a truly rust-free example with very little door ding damage to it.
Will install a K&N air filter.
Did the obligatory oil change and new gear oil in the transaxle.
Had the injectors cleaned/rebuilt and recalibrated by RC Injectors with no problems. Those guys are tops!
It needs a new rear muffler which doesn't appear to be big issue. The cat looks brand new which was a job that may have actually been done by the shop since there is a recent charge in one of the invoices. I'm encouraged the car will pass Colorado emissions.
I'm planning on bigger wheels and high performance summer tires while using the original wheels for winter tires.

I've already spent somewhat more than what I paid for the car, in parts and services, and I will probably spend about three or four times the purchase price before I'm done (not counting what it cost to get it home and paint, should I ever do that). I could have probably bought an example that needed less work for about what I'm going to spend but I'm having so much fun and the car will be a reliable, enjoyable daily driver. Plus I will know what's been done to it and how many new parts on which I can rely.

Lewis774 · 07-29-2018, 09:50 PM

That’s going to be a well sorted car. I’m pondering about doing timing belt myself or having local European shop do it?

rbuswell · rbuswell's Garage

... make sure you have the right tools. The ArnnWorx belt replacement tool set is a must have. It got a great right up in the May Panorama. It has already come in handy for getting the front pulley bolt off.