Time Serts-Porsche 944

[DanR944]

I have a 84' 944 engine block that has one of the front cylinder head bolts that broke off in the block. The bolt is below the surface, so I can't grip the remaining part of the bolt with vise grips. Also one of the bolts for the water pump broke inside the hole too. I think Time Serts are my only option.

How hard is it for a newbie to properly install time serts? I have not heard back from the machine shops I have called, so might try to repair them myself. Thank you for your time and feedback!!

[Ga 951]

Disclaimer: I have no experience with time serts but believe they would be superior for your application. I have used helicoils in less critical applications with good results.

BEFORE you go this route, try overnight applications of PB blaster or Kroil penetrating oil, followed by left hand drill/easy out. I have been successful with this method. You must be able to get a good perpendicular angle on the drill bit. If the engine is in the car you probably will need a right angle drill for the water pump bolt.

Good luck

[DanR944]

Originally Posted by Ga 951

Disclaimer: I have no experience with time serts but believe they would be superior for your application. I have used helicoils in less critical applications with good results.

BEFORE you go this route, try overnight applications of PB blaster or Kroil penetrating oil, followed by left hand drill/easy out. I have been successful with this method. You must be able to get a good perpendicular angle on the drill bit. If the engine is in the car you probably will need a right angle drill for the water pump bolt.

Good luck

I will try this. I am removing the engine to do the clutch, seals, water pump, belts, etc. Just got to remove the remaining two torque tube bolts at the bell housing. Having a little trouble with those too.

[9FF]

Heat is your best friend for assisting in removing any studs or bolts that have been on there a while. Welding a bolt onto a broken stud both aids removing the broken piece with the heat and provides another method of removal.

[88Silver924S]

It's something of a process getting a broken bolt/stud out. There are people claiming the best penetrating fluid is 50/50 ATF (automatic transmission fluid) and acetone, some articles with "scientific" torque numbers (https://app.aws.org/forum/topic_show.pl?tid=32013). I would start with some kind of penetrating oil, then using a center punch give the bolt a few serious raps to hopefully break it loose and prepare to drill it, give the penetrating oil time to work. Drill it and try the easy-out with vise-grips to slow twist (not a high rpm electric drill) to break them loose; as was said before heat is your friend. If you have the equipment the welding thing can work.

In the future when you encounter a suspicious bolt sometimes turning it in the tighten direction a degree or two breaks it loose before turning it in the loosen direction. Good luck.

[944 Ecology]

Welding a nut to the remaining piece of the bolt in the block is a proven technique. Not only does it provide a means of turning the bolt, but, in the process, heats up the bolt to break it free. (Let me guess, it is one of the allen bolts at the front of the head, around the extension for the water jacket.)

[onZedge]

Originally Posted by 9FF

Heat is your best friend for assisting in removing any studs or bolts that have been on there a while. Welding a bolt onto a broken stud both aids removing the broken piece with the heat and provides another method of removal.

The cylinder head studs are retained with a sealant that will REQUIRE heat to soften (this is some strong s***).

As 9FF indicates, welding on a bolt is the best way to remove the remainder of the stud after the sealant has been softened.

As far as timer-serts, I installed time-serts in all ten cylinder head stud holes in the block about 5 months ago, along with new Raceware studs/washers/nuts, head inspection/refresh, and a Cometic head gasket. I used the standard M12x1.5 universal head stud kit and did the procedure myself at home. I did have to add a few "parts" to the "universal kit", and modify the drill guide plate to make it all work.

I would suggest looking at the video(s) on the time-sert website. They make it look easy, but in reality, it is a little tedious and messy with the engine still in the car. BTW, Bel-Metric sells the time-sert head stud kits.

Edit - I will add some photos later this this week as time allows

[DanR944]

Originally Posted by 944 Ecology

Welding a nut to the remaining piece of the bolt in the block is a proven technique. Not only does it provide a means of turning the bolt, but, in the process, heats up the bolt to break it free. (Let me guess, it is one of the allen bolts at the front of the head, around the extension for the water jacket.)

Yes sir it is. I will try to take a good photo and post. The bolt broke below the surface. I wish it had broke above the surface to where I could get a grip on it with vise grips. Thank you to everyone for the
great suggestions!

[DanR944]

I probably already know the answer to this question, but is it possible to leave one of the Allen bolts out? Has anyone tried it? I know the 944S only has one bolt at the front of the cylinder head, so just curious? Obviously the head studs are super important, but the two Allen bolts at the front don't have as much torque.

[IdahoDoug]

So I have a bit of a procedural question here - a couple actually. Dan, you have no reason to believe you need Time Serts or any other product designed to repair damaged threads, right? Rather than the threads stripping, your bolts broke. So at this moment you have undamaged threads and broken bolts. Rather than trying this yourself, it is actually time to consider paying a professional welder to weld something onto these and unscrew them. Do that and you'll likely pay perhaps $200 for the extractions but then it's a done deal. Some welders have a mobile service, or if you're handy in this way, have a buddy just tow you to the welder you choose with a tow strap. Or if you're pulling the engine and have other means, bring the engine to the shop.

I just don't want to see you pay $150 for a Time Sert kit and tool, perhaps something for an extractor tool, and then still potentially drill crooked and mess something up.

Doug

[DanR944]

Originally Posted by IdahoDoug

So I have a bit of a procedural question here - a couple actually. Dan, you have no reason to believe you need Time Serts or any other product designed to repair damaged threads, right? Rather than the threads stripping, your bolts broke. So at this moment you have undamaged threads and broken bolts. Rather than trying this yourself, it is actually time to consider paying a professional welder to weld something onto these and unscrew them. Do that and you'll likely pay perhaps $200 for the extractions but then it's a done deal. Some welders have a mobile service, or if you're handy in this way, have a buddy just tow you to the welder you choose with a tow strap. Or if you're pulling the engine and have other means, bring the engine to the shop.

I just don't want to see you pay $150 for a Time Sert kit and tool, perhaps something for an extractor tool, and then still potentially drill crooked and mess something up.

Doug

Thank you for the information. Good suggestions! I don't think there is enough of the bolt exposed to be able to weld a but. I did spray some penetrating oil as suggested. Also going to take a photo during the day light and post.

[944 Ecology]

Originally Posted by DanR944

Thank you for the information. Good suggestions! I don't think there is enough of the bolt exposed to be able to weld a but. I did spray some penetrating oil as suggested. Also going to take a photo during the day light and post.

The remainder of the bolt does not have to be exposed. Check out the various youtube videos showing this technique, some with the bolt broken down into the block.

[9FF]

Originally Posted by DanR944

Thank you for the information. Good suggestions! I don't think there is enough of the bolt exposed to be able to weld a but. I did spray some penetrating oil as suggested. Also going to take a photo during the day light and post.

Originally Posted by 944 Ecology

The remainder of the bolt does not have to be exposed. Check out the various youtube videos showing this technique, some with the bolt broken down into the block.

+1 I haven’t seen the job but I’m 99.9% certain that a professional welder can do the job regardless if any of the bolt is exposed. You’re assuming the worst without knowing the capabilities of a professional, go speak to a pro and be prepared to be surprised.

[IdahoDoug]

Agree - welders and some mechanics are capable of small miracles with extracting broke and corroded bolts. If you live in a rust belt state you are in even better company as mechanics in those areas deal with them routinely.

[DanR944]

I sincerely appreciate everyone who took time to respond and offer their advice. I have contacted a welder who makes house calls. Hopefully he will be able to help me.

[DanR944]

Originally Posted by IdahoDoug

So I have a bit of a procedural question here - a couple actually. Dan, you have no reason to believe you need Time Serts or any other product designed to repair damaged threads, right? Rather than the threads stripping, your bolts broke. So at this moment you have undamaged threads and broken bolts. Rather than trying this yourself, it is actually time to consider paying a professional welder to weld something onto these and unscrew them. Do that and you'll likely pay perhaps $200 for the extractions but then it's a done deal. Some welders have a mobile service, or if you're handy in this way, have a buddy just tow you to the welder you choose with a tow strap. Or if you're pulling the engine and have other means, bring the engine to the shop.

I just don't want to see you pay $150 for a Time Sert kit and tool, perhaps something for an extractor tool, and then still potentially drill crooked and mess something up.

Doug

It is tough to know if the threads are damaged. The way the bolt broke off makes it impossible to see the threads where the bolt screws into the block. Only time will tell.

[Spring44]

Originally Posted by 9FF

+1 I haven’t seen the job but I’m 99.9% certain that a professional welder can do the job regardless if any of the bolt is exposed. You’re assuming the worst without knowing the capabilities of a professional, go speak to a pro and be prepared to be surprised.

I hope I'm wrong but I have a bad feeling about this welding procedure. They are going to raise the temperature of a steel bolt to near its melting point(2700 deg. F) in order to weld it and this is going to be done down in a hole in an aluminum block with a melting point of ~1270 deg F. Is it possible that the block will start to melt around the bolt hole by the time the bolt can be welded?

[Ga 951]

The weld method on an aluminum head concerns me as well. I think you risk warping the head. I am NOT a welder so it is quite possible I don't know what I'm talking about

[9FF]

Originally Posted by Spring44

I hope I'm wrong but I have a bad feeling about this welding procedure. They are going to raise the temperature of a steel bolt to near its melting point(2700 deg. F) in order to weld it and this is going to be done down in a hole in an aluminum block with a melting point of ~1270 deg F. Is it possible that the block will start to melt around the bolt hole by the time the bolt can be welded?

Originally Posted by Ga 951

The weld method on an aluminum head concerns me as well. I think you risk warping the head. I am NOT a welder so it is quite possible I don't know what I'm talking about

There are many ways to do it without any harm to the base metal or threads. I’ve used a nut centered on the hole and with the MIG nozzle centered on the nut I fill the nut with weld. The heat is concentrated on the center and almost never affects the base metal, but I suppose there is always a risk. There are even rods like Xtractalloy that are specifically for this purpose, like I said speak to a professional welder and you will be surprised what they can do.

https://youtu.be/L4zohssWS7I

[DanR944]

Originally Posted by Spring44

I hope I'm wrong but I have a bad feeling about this welding procedure. They are going to raise the temperature of a steel bolt to near its melting point(2700 deg. F) in order to weld it and this is going to be done down in a hole in an aluminum block with a melting point of ~1270 deg F. Is it possible that the block will start to melt around the bolt hole by the time the bolt can be welded?

Thank you for the information. I sent a message to the welder who is suppose to come to my house Friday.