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Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Ft Lauderdale, Florida
Posts: 26
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Need Help Choosing a Porsche!
Since I was knee high to a grasshopper I have been a Mustang fan to the bone, but I have been quietly eyeing Porsches for some time. Anyone can agree that they are all beautiful cars as well as quieter then your average "non-stock" Mustang. I am getting rid of my Convertible Mustang right now, partially due to problems and wanting a more "grown-up" car, but more so due tot he fact that I can't have a conversation when I am driving. I have been looking at the early 80's 911's or the late 80's 944, but I have not been able to find anyone that knows anymore then the fact that a Porsche is expensive to repair! I know that going from my HP drenched car to a 4 banger or even 6 cyl will be a big change, but I am ok with it. I don't like the 928's or the 924's, partially due to the cost or the reported problems. With that known, can anyone shed some light on the subject?! My only pre reqs are that the car be a 5 speed and be able to be upgraded in the future (nothing big, just exhaust, etc...). If I were to purchase a 944, a front engine car, will I be able to get a more "potent" engine in the future? What the heck does S2 stand for ont he 90's? Ahhhhhhhhhh, help!! Any and all info is greatly appreciated. Special thanks to Pelican for having a nice site like this and their information soaked website! Have a great day and thanks to all again.
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11-04-2000, 10:37 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
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hello,
well, if you want a car that you can boost through the roof, then get a 944 turbo. as far as the "cost of reported problems" with the 924, i'm puzzled over that. i spent more money repairing my Nissan Sentra than i did my 924. i also know people with 928s that drive them 9 months of the year and only put gas and oil into them. i still say that if you want POWER, then go with a 944 turbo. you'll run out of money before you run out of horsepower and handling tweaks... and there are a million and one places that can extract more power out of them. there are 430Hp daily-driver 944s out there! good luck! obin |
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11-04-2000, 12:00 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: atl, ga, usa
Posts: 214
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i just got an 87' 944 a few months ago and i previously had no burning love for the cars. i bought it because i had heard that it is one of the best cornering production cars in the world. and becaues you can find really affordable 944's and do alot of the work yourself. they are relatively easy to work on and parts are no more expensive than most other imports. also, of course the 944 looks incredible! and my wife wants to be a charlie's angel and she needs a car to drive on her crime fighting missions, but she's going to have trouble getting the keys...
anyway, the thing to remember about the porsches versus the mustangs is that the porsches are made to go really fast for long distances and around curves (autobahn) and the mustang is made to go straight and not around corners very fast (american street drag racing). so the point is, don't abuse your porsche's clutch, tranny, and differential when you find the one you want, and make sure you appreciate its handling (which im sure you will). good luck... |
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11-04-2000, 08:48 PM
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Location: atl, ga, usa
Posts: 214
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the S2 has a 3.0L I-4 24v and makes around 200hp. thats the difference
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11-04-2000, 08:50 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: San Bernardino, Ca, USA
Posts: 49
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one minor correction, S2 is 16V.
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11-04-2000, 09:38 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Sweden
Posts: 278
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More info on the 944 can be found here: http://porsche-944-garage.tripod.com/ http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/1760/
/Magnus |
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11-05-2000, 02:14 AM
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Location: Ft Lauderdale, Florida
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Thank you for your post, and for the info. Good luck to your wife and her Angels gig too! I do have one correcting to make in your post though. You stated that the Porsche was the fastest cornering vehicle while the Mustang was for the straights. I have to state that my Mustang would and has taken all cars that I have challenged with it, whether it be straights or corners. I owe it mostly to the Budnik 17's on the car and the enormous, low sidewall AVS tires, but I can say without a doubt that the car would scare you. Now, as far as the Porsche is concerned, are you saying that if you are feeling frisky and jump off the line, it is bad for the car? Will the 928's engine fit in to the 944's bay (they are both front engine cars, right?). What can I say, I don't even have th car yet and already I want to boost it! Guess it is just in the blood! Thank you again for your post and have a great day. Time to go beat my Mustang up a few more time before I get a new car and have to be nice to it.
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11-05-2000, 04:35 AM
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Jagraff,
Does your heart skip a beat when you see a 911, 944 or a 968, or all of them? What I’m going to do is try and provide you with some insight into the 911 from the perspective of a 911 owner and advocate. A 69’-98’ 911 is arguably a more rewarding car to drive and to own than a 944, 951 or a 968, while also being more demanding of one's concentration and one's willingness to work a little bit to extract the best from the car. While a 911 is not as balanced as a 944 or a 968, that's not to say it's inferior in terms of its on-road or on-track dynamics; it just requires a different approach, and one that is based on using the back end of the car and the car’s weight bias to carry speed through turns with almost AWD-like adhesion. But around town and on the street, a post-69' 911 is pure joy, even in the wet. By virtue of the lack of weight over the front wheels, and its overall weight bias toward the rear, the 911 is an extremely agile and tractable car to drive, and very few cars provide the driver with more feedback about the road and the car’s on-road behavior like a 911 does. I’m not going to discuss the styling of the 911, as it’s one of the least debatable aspects of the car. But I’m going to conclude by talking briefly about the engine, arguably the car’s most defining feature. All 911 engines are horizontally opposed, six-cylinder units cooled by a combination of air and oil. The 911 engine was originally race-bred, and it’s a fact that’s not lost in even the latest incarnation of the engine, despite it being cooled by water. By virtue of the 911 engine’s boxer design, these engines are perfectly balanced and boast a very low center of gravity, two characteristics that stem directly from its racing heritage. Also, all 911 engines boast a dry sump to prevent oil starvation through high-g corners, which some 911 detractors feel to be an unnecessary feature of the car since they feel the 911 is unable, intrinsically, to reach high cornering g’s! I can tell you from personal experience that the dry sump is a welcomed feature, and one that is not there just for bragging rights! Regardless of which 911 you get, if you decide to head in that direction, be safe in the knowledge that behind you sits one of the best engines of all time, one that is flexible, responsive, and potent, and best of all, symphonic – it really is a musical instrument, and one that likes to be played! I hope this is some food for thought. Matt Holcomb www.holscope.com/74Carrera [This message has been edited by Matt Holcomb (edited 11-05-2000).] |
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11-05-2000, 04:43 AM
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Location: Virginia Beach, VA
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jagraff:
if you drag race a Porsche "off-the-line" then you will blow the transmission to pieces after a short while. Porsche transmissions are very well built, but they are built like big swiss watches... ever seen a drag-racing swiss watch? no, well there's about as many drag-racing swiss watches as there are drag racing Porsches. i also assume from your posts that you are a car enthusiast and you're simply looking for a nice looking ride with a LOT of power and excellent handling. truth be told, there is no one porsche that will do everything that every owner wants... which is why they have such a variety of cars. i have had absolutely no problem out cornering Porsche 930s in my 924. when we go for a "run" i can out-handle just about all the other Porsches in my local PCA region all day long and not break a sweat (but can't outpower them yet). i also have such powerful brakes that it makes me wonder why the hell everyone else has to hit them so early. i almost end up parking in the tailpipes of cars in front of me. as much as i love to drive it 10/10, the 924 does not have the options to tweak it cheaply for mor power like a 944. if you want a LOT of power then go with a later 944, preferebly 1985.5 and later. the 944S2s are VERY competent cars and they can make short work out of a lot of other vehicles on the road. no matter what anyone (including me) wants you to think or believe, the tried and true cheapest route to extreme Porsche horsepower (reliable horsepower too) is a 944 Turbo. when you consider that there are dozens of places across the country that can take a 200Hp 944 turbo and help you to get 400, 500, or even 600 Horsepower out of it then that says something. right within my region there are people with 944 turbos that can out accelerate, out brake, and out handle 928s, 911s, 924s, and 914s that had more than 4 times the amount of money spent on them. at a track event this year, i came across a man that spent $8,000 on his 944 turbo track car. that included the cost of the car, the safety equipment, and all the other details. well, there was only ONE car that could pass him and that was my friend Andy in his 996 (which has been modified extensively). hmm, let's see here... $8,000 versus $75,000... and they are a very even match... hmm. i don't have $75,000 to spend, but i think i can swing $8,000. the 944 turbos also kept up with (and passed) several friends in 930s (including a friend with a $15,000 motor). we timed the lap times of the cars and out of 100 PCA track cars, the only thing faster than the 944 turbos were either dedicated race/track cars (not street legal) or a few 996s (which had track modifications). forgot to mention that the 944 turbos were all (except for three of them) driven to the track, and not trailered. you could buy a nice 911 for the cost of a fully upgraded 944 turbo... but when you upgrade the two, you will be spending more on the 911, and you will also be starting from a lower HP rating. the same is true for 924s, 928s, and every other car in the Porsche line, even the Boxster. consider that for the cost of a Boxster you could assemble a 944 turbo with over 430Hp... well, like i said before, what you do with your money is your business, but i'm just talking about low-buck Porsche horsepower (NOT resale value, warranty items, or other things). i've seen 944 turbo race cars for less than the cost of a new Honda Civic. come over to the Hershey PA swap meet and you will see what i am talking about. the amount of power you can extract from a 944 turbo is just unreal. you will never meet a 944 turbo owner that says that the car is slow or sluggish. it is indeed my next choice in Porsches when the time comes to add to the collection. i'll be the first one to tell you that if you want more HP for dollar, don't get what I currently have. basic math: to get the power to weight ratio of a basic 944 turbo in my 924... i'd need to spend about $9,000. for that money i could BUY a new car. it's just no worth it. to get the power to weight ratio of a 944 turbo in my 944, i'd need to spend at least $6,000. still not worth it. here's some placed to lok to for beefing up the 944 turbo. as you can see, if you want more POWER, then they are no joke: http://www.andial.com (you'll run out of cash WAY before you run out of power options) http://www.huntleyracing.com (it's absolutely absurd the power they get out of their cars. cut to the chase and click on: http://www.huntleyracing.com/turbos.htm#944 Turbo Stage V) http://www.windward-perf.com/944turbo.html (options you never knew existed... race proven and daily-driver reliable) here's what is currently on the market to give you an idea of how much these cars cost: good luck searching. of course what you end up buying is your own decision. when you asked: "If I were to purchase a 944, a front engine car, will I be able to get a more "potent" engine in the future?" ... then i knew the answer a mile away. obin |
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11-05-2000, 06:14 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Fairfield, CT, USA
Posts: 397
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How to get power out of a 944.
Buy an 85 or newer N/A for cheap and spend $12,000 on the motor for a lightweight 200hp car. Buy an 87-88 944S and spend $12-15K on the motor for a 250hp car. Buy a 944 S2 (Series 2 in case anybody really wanted to know) spend $15K on the motor for 300 hp. Buy a 944 N/A that doesn't run and drop a Chevy LT1 into it using the kit from renegade hybrids. Buy a 944 Turbo (951) of any vintage (but preferably 87 or newer) add chips to get 275-300 hp, or build a motor for the car anywhere from 350-600 hp and costing anywhere from $15K-$40K with various displacement possibilities (2.5, 2.7, 2.8, 2.9, 3.0, 3.2, 3.4) and various boost levels (15psi on a 3 liter 2 valve motor that is built right from the block up will net you a very nice 400 hp to the rear wheels) |
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11-05-2000, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
[This message has been edited by jagraff (edited 11-05-2000).] |
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11-05-2000, 07:28 AM
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11-05-2000, 10:19 AM
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11-05-2000, 12:23 PM
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Here's some food for thought. A tuneup on a 911 requires removal of the engine! Virtually all major engine repairs on the 944 can be performed with the engine in car.
For my two cents, nothing offers a better performance to price ratio than the 944 Turbo. How many 162 mph cars can you buy these days for $10,000-$15,000? They're also loaded with every option and creature comfort you could possibly want in a sportscar. They're also very refined and sophisticated. The looks are a matter of personal choice. I've always LOVED the look of the 944. To many people, the 911 is the most recognizable Porsche, bar none. Maybe, but to me, the 944 is the best looking Porsche, bar none. I have an early 944, and have spent about $20,000 on it. There is very little you can modify on the NA 944 to achieve great performance gains. If I could do it over, I would have purchased a 951 outright. BTW, there is a supercharger kit that can be fitted to a NA 944. However, you'd have to spend big bucks upgrading the powertrain to deal with the increase in power. Not worth the added expense, imo, better to just buy a 951. |
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11-05-2000, 04:11 PM
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Guys,
Stop this 944 Turbo talk, for you're effecting my 911 equilibrium! Jokes aside, an oil change for a 911 in Aussie dollars is in the vicinity of $100. As for other maintenance issues, the 911, like with any other Porsche and European marque, is expensive to run only if you start fitting new OEM replacement parts. And as for having to remove the engine from a 911 to be able to work on it, think how much money the average mechanic will save on chiropractic bills! Matt Holcomb [This message has been edited by Matt Holcomb (edited 11-05-2000).] |
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11-05-2000, 04:58 PM
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Myths!
I've got a 928s, 911s and a 951. Engine removal on 911: It doesn't need to come out for a tuneup. The best synthetic is $4.00 a quart x12 = $48.00 plus about $6.00 for an OEM filter from mail order. Valve adjustment might cost around $20 for gaskets. Valve adjustment tool is about $10.00. 928 Just change the fluids and take care, especially the SOHCs. Run like trains. 951: I'm gonna get a ticket. I can't shift it fast enough. Makes $20s real quick. How come none of the big stuff breaks? Is the rear end tougher than on the 944s? P mechanics make their bread and butter on the 944s including turbos, but you can DIY. Abused cars, delayed maintainence vehicles can put you in the poorhouse, but reliability is very high and that is why Porsche got their name in racing way back when. Dan Smith |
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11-05-2000, 06:41 PM
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Location: Elkton, VA, USA
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Okay, I'm going to speak from the view of a 951 Owner, but also with experience of 930's (911 Turbos). For the 930s that I have seen worked on, and talked to my co-worker/friend having his worked on, to change the Spark Plugs (something I try to do regularly) the engine has to be pulled. Change the belts? Pull the engine. Most engine parts changes? Pull the engine.
I can change the spark plugs in my 951 in about 10 minutes... Change the belts? I don't have to remove the engine (A lot of other crap to remove, but the engine stays in the bay). Work is much easier to be done on a 951 unless you have a garage with an engine lift. Have an engine lift? Then maybe you won't be so bad off getting a 930. As far as your comments about your mustang handling in the corners? OH you have NO idea. I've driven some very nice Mustangs that had a lot of suspension work, and I was very afraid cornering in them where I'd feel steady with in my 951. Can you drag the 951 off the line? Sure ya can. Does it break? Mine hasn't yet. I took a 5.0 Mustang just last week off the line, and down the stretch. Up to 80 it was a neck and neck battle...after 80 I left him behind. The 951 (944 Turbo) has got to be the funnest car I have driven. It has been for me reliable, affordable (not without its problems, but reasonable ones) and fast. I'm looking at about a 3000 dollar upgrade to the intercooler, turbo, and getting a MAF, all to drop my 0-60 into the very low 5's or upper 4's. But that's not the impressive part, the impressive part is dropping the hammer at 70 or 80, and feeling the car have soooo much power still in it. 903s are fun cars. I've enjoyed them and if you're really used to them, you can do things with them that'll make your passenger wet his pants. But when it comes to fun/price/upgradeability ratios, nothing beats a 944 Turbo. And, to quote my friend who inspired my purchase of a 951 "If it ain't a turbo, why bother?" I know that'll piss some people off...but I have come to feel the same way. Do yourself a favor, get the turbo, and enjoy it 
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11-06-2000, 02:00 PM
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Location: Fairfield, CT, USA
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(Fast Reliable Cheap) Chooses two...
"So you are telling me that to get 200hp out of one of these motors that is N/A it will be around $12k?! Anyone else......." Yes if you want it to be reilable "Ok, so if the S2 is series 2, what is the S Series stand for? Sport? Is the S series N/A and what was the difference between the previous one to this one? Too many models!" S in Porsche speak generally stands for "super". In this case you get a 2.5 liter N/A motor but a 16 valve DOHC head, very peaky engine. "I understand, from another informative post (thanks again), that this model has the different engine. This model came out in 89, right? Is this a recommended model, I can't afford the Turbo. Or let me rephrase that, I don't want to buy a turbo car that is 13 years old. I know how I was on my Ford that was Turbocharged so I don't want to open a can of worms like that." I had a 91 S2 and of all the 944 I've owned (5 at last count) this was my favotite street/autrocross car, fanatstic motor! The only problem with these cars has been failure of the timing chain tensioner, however as long as the chain and tensioner are replaced at reasonable intervals this has proven to be a bulletproof car. "Thank you for the offer, but again, I don't want a turbo car that is that old. One question though, is there a difference in the car itself from the Turbo to the N/A car? Are you "able" to take a Turbo motor and put it in the N/A body without modifications?" Its all in the maintenance, I've not had a single turbo related failure on any of three 951s, also if you are building a crazy motor then it is really brand new isn't it. Turbo motor will bolt right into an N/A car, however you will also need the wire harness and computer and gauge cluster. The 88' Turbo S and 89 Turbo had some body modifications form the other cars, some front end reinforcment and all fender lips came rolled from the factory. These cars also have uprated transaxle spec compared to the regular Turbo. BTW I don;t know if I mentioned it buut I currenlty own an 88' 951S and an 88 951 track car. My previous 944s were the 91 S2, and an 87 Turbo. I also have a wrecked 951 S in the garage. |
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11-06-2000, 03:16 PM
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You shouldn't compare a turbocharged Ford's reliability with a Porsche's, especially the 951. You have no idea. Talk to people that have them. I haven't had any problems with mine and about the only thing I ever hear from others are disconnected vacuum hoses(cheap and easy). Even when you need a turbo rebuild, you can get it done for around $300. My turbo lasted 100000 miles and I only had it rebuilt because it inhales an airbox bolt(not the cars fault, just the stupid previous owner's). It didn't smoke and it spooled up just as quick as new. I guess I'm saying that Porsche did an outstanding job engineering the car and had very innovative thinking in the 951 that maks it so reliable.
As to your conversion question, parts that are different in a 951 vs. 944na: motor, exhaust, suspension, entire drivetrain, brakes, body, interior(gauges), computer, wiring harness, water pumps, etc... Last, but perhaps most important, the 951's tranny is very strong. I'm not sure I've EVER heard of one braking without any modifications. With a turbo setup, the NA tranny wouldn't stand a chance. Buy a well cared for 951 and you won't have any regrets. You can get excellent ones for $7500 to $8500. You'll spend way more than that purchasing a 944na and upgrading. Dave |
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11-06-2000, 10:18 PM
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If you want lots of horsepower for small money get a 944 turbo. If you want a refined well handling sports car at resonable cost get a 944S2. If you want total Porsche fanatism get a 911. It doesn't seem like you're after the 2 latter options. You're more into hp right? Don't buy a 911 just for hp. A 911 deserves more. Same thing with the 944S2. It's a very fine sports car, but it doesn't have potential for loads of hp. Now the 944 Turbo has that potential so what's the problem?
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11-07-2000, 05:47 AM
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1974 Porsche 911 Carrera 2.7 2.7 MFI
1986 Porsche 944 Turbo 2.5L turbocharged 
