DE at VIR (report)

[1.2gees]

This is a respond to a reply at the wood dash post:

What's wrong with passing cars at DE? Only during designated areas we could pass cars, for my class on the longest/back straight, AFTER the driver infront of you points to the direction we can pass them at.

I was riding this guy's tail for about 3 laps, and he wouldn't let me pass, I was pissed, cause he slowed me down. Once on the backstraight he allowed me to pass (albeit after killing my momentum, and making me back off the gas so I don't rear end him at the exit of a turn), then he didn't back off!

Sad truth, my car's not faster than a lightly modified Integra Type R in a straight line. I pull out (after his signal), he doesn't back off, I have to pull back in before the braking zone! His instructor must've *****ed at him, at the next straight he gave me a signal right after the turn, as I passed him that time. I don't know if he backed off too, but his signal allowing me to pass was early enough that I kept my momentum, and passed him.

This brings up a couple of issues, I was on the track for up to 35min at a time (both days about 2 hours total, covering a little over 140miles of track). On the first day, my engine ran quite hot, and once pulled into the pits the pedal was noticably softer, after parking the car for a few min. The front rotors are also warped slightly (but they're almost worn down). However while on track, I didn't experiance any noticable fade, even after the ***** (turn 1, taken at about 35 mph, AFTER the longest straight, at the end of which you're going above 115-120). Time for better quality/fresh fluid, and pads a tad more agressive. I'll put my high temp thermostat back in, after much debating. Running an engine cool reduces the efficiency, and increases wear. I'm contamplating putting an extra oil cooler in. I purchased some ducting today, that I'll use for the front brakes. The car had a little bit of understeer, and felt comparatively loose at around 100mph. The rear was lowered with shorter tires for the second day, which I think is the reason for this. Shorter tires will find their way to the front in a few months.

If anybody is interested in the modifications I'm planning, how the car feels (which is stock suspension wise, as we speak, save for sport sway bars), how it drove, pictures, etc. let me know, I'll be glad to post them.
Ahmet

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It's all the driver...

[85944na]

i'm interested in your mods, and the pics, and also how the car felt...post it all =)

[Dave951M]

What did you think of the instructors? Was the DE worthwhile? Sorry I missed it, beach trip.

Dave951M

[lordgrommit]

VIR is a cool track about 10 years ago my friend Will and I went and found it in the Virgina back country. He had all kinds of background on the place when I drove the track last in my Rental Geo Storm wagon (yea I"m bad) the pot holes could swallow a caddy. I tore off the underside spoiler and the underbody dam driving around 30mph at the fastest.. butter beans were being grown on the infield and hay on the out side hay rolls were all down pit lane.. but even then it seemed like a cool place glad to see they've put it to use

Matt

[1.2gees]

OK, the car's close to stock now, with the exception of:

Pagid orange brake pads, ATE super blue racing brake fluid, stainless steel brake lines, and automotion backing plates (so they don't make noise, but I think this helps insulate the heat from the pads, keeping the brake piston-->fluid temp low).

As for the suspension, I have the optional factory sport sway bars, front and rear. Also have a

Tires are 225/50/15 rear, and 245/50/15 front. And the reason for that:

On saturday, coming to the ***** (the official name for the decreasing radius, decreasing OFF camber turn, after the longest straight, at which time you'll be going about 115+ depending on the car), I locked up the right rear, and wore it down to past the belts... Drove back home at the end of the day, and swapped the 225/50/15s, as rain was expected anyway. (and yes it did rain).

I had a ***** load of mods last year, but as we speak, a sport clutch, no thermostat, low temp fan switch, no cat, and a few adjustible tweaks here and there are about it.

Now, not having a thermostat doesn't help, infact it hurts a little. The engine runs cold when at idle, but when it's run hard, some of the coolant just circulates in the engine, not going through the radiator (as part of the thermostat acts as a block off plate, when it 'opens'). +If an engine is run cold, it'll wear more, and not make as much power. Thus I've decided to put a stock thermostat back in, keeping the redline water wetter, low temp. fan swithes, etc. in. This way the thermostat'll regulate engine temp, and the ability to KEEP it at the best temp, instead of way too cold, or hot for that matter.

I had the engine running with a perfect mixture, if not a bit lean. Big mistake, car overheated slightly.

Here are some pics:

First lap:

Second lap:

Third lap:

During 3rd:

Scarry turn:

Last lap:
Yes, once I passed everybody, I got to push the car, read on...

Scarry turn:
This is yet another downhill turn, taken around 75mph in 3rd gear...

I'll be better prepared to take pics next time, I have tons more, I may post others later, don't have too much time right now.

Anyway, the car was way off alignment, and thus felt quite unsettling at higher speeds. There's a slight S curve, that I was able to take around 100mph, that my instructor for Sunday didn't like too much. The car was drifting, and almost everytime I started touching the curb on the inside, drifting to the curb on the outside. He then made me pull into the pits, and throw away my remaining 10 min. on the track for that session. Told me to do what he said, etc. Anyway, I can't say I liked his approach, but he did teach me being smoother, through keeping the car at desired locations on track, but come on power earlier (not use all the room). I think I really did learn being smoother from him.

Also, the 225s in the rear only make the car feel very nervous under hard braking. I don't think braking power was reduced, unless the car wasn't pointing straight.

Overall though, I'm glad I did this, and yes the car is very easy to control. However if you're playing with the car's balance, and pushing it, undulations on the road may make the car rotate VERY fast, good reactions are vital to pushing this car to it's limit at higher speed situations. Forexample, an M3 infront of me decided to brake hard into a corner, and I was expecting to outbrake him comfortably (as I had been), and stabbing the brakes far deeper than planned. What I'm saying is, the car's tail is going to come out considerably faster, if you unsettle car going downhill at 70+, compared to the normal auto-x type situation, at around let's say 30mph, and on level ground. Even then though, it's controllable, quick reactions is all you need. I was able to pass the M3 after the very next turn, leading to the long straight.

The instructors? They were great, the instructor I had on saturday couldn't be any more different than sunday. Saturday it was dry, and I had 245s all around, Sunday it was raining, my instructor wanted me to follow a completely different line, as he'd tell me differently each time, and to use less of the track, it also rained. Getting out of the car Sunday, he told me that he'd been a b*tch on purpose, and that it seemed to work! I feel the same way! I'm going to do a couple more DEs, and start TT. I may keep doing DE for a long time as well.

These were some of the best days of my life!

Bought some ducting, and other stuff, work on the car for life on the track/street should start soon.

I have more to say, but not much time right now, I'll keep adding to this, as I have time in my computer class!

I welcome any questions/additions/comments as well.
Ahmet

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It's all the driver...

[1.2gees]

lordgrommit, check this:

There was a guy, with a green mustang gt (rented from triangle rent a car)...

He towed a trailer to the track, loaded with race tires, on some (what appeared to be) lightweight fikse wheels. Swapped the wheels/tires at the track, and raced. Came back out, swapped the stock rims/tires back on, and drove off, towing his tire trailer...

The track is VERY nice today, and no broken pavement, or other imperfection ANYWHERE on the track. For a look at it, go to virclub.com. I was on the south course for the past weekend, but will be going to north, and full course sometime around june.
Ahmet

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It's all the driver...

[redNeckarsulm2]

Nothing wrong with passing cars at DE. They wave you by, you pass them... They don't, you don't.
Why tell us you passed them all? What was the point of the comment?
It SOUNDED like you were expressing an ACCOMPLISHMENT or ACHIEVEMENT... (like in a competitive way, etc.)
My concern is that there may be someone on the track during a drivers education actually RACING...

See what I mean?

[1.2gees]

Yes, I look at this to be an accomplishment, this was my first time on the track, with an almost stock car, and I was beating people with experiance, driving much more capable cars, like an M3 with modified brakes, and race slicks, or a 300zx, with a guy who's been to 11 schools before this.

Passing everybody simply means I was going faster than everybody, in a much less capable car, with very little experience.
Ahmet

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It's all the driver...

[redNeckarsulm2]

Nobody's questioning your skill - we all read the posts, we know you are a good driver...

But if no one else is TRYING to pass cars (i.e. LEARNING) at the D.E.....

See what I'm saying?
It just doesn't make sense...

Anyway - you really should hillclimb. i bet you'd really enjoy that! (that's where I am headed when I get enough education...)

[1.2gees]

I went there to learn how to drive fast on a track, comfortably, THAT was my goal.

If others were out there to cruize around, than they really were missing out, and I feel bad for them. But I don't exactly think they weren't pushing it, when people run off the track left and right trying to go fast.

The only reason one would pass (or want to pass) another car at a DE event is so that the car in front doesn't slow down the car behind. I went faster around the lap compared to these people, that meant I needed to pass them to keep close to my limit, so that I still get to explore new territory, and am not simply driving moderately fast.

I don't think I have that much skill in driving cars just yet, I just work well with 944s. Natural ability? Perhaps, but I still need to hone my skills (a lot!), as I'm sure there are people who can jump in my car, and beat my times, to get to their level is my goal, as well as to have fun. Every time I drove on track, I felt more comfortable around the track, and went a bit faster, and the car was under control, at the limit, more comfortably. That to me means I got my money's worth

Hillclimbs may be a lot of fun, (and yes I've thought about it), but I don't think it'll be that much fun without the horses. +Hillclimb cars suspensions are usually quite different in comparison to track cars. I may give it a try, as soon as I get my license back. As always, I'll keep you guys updated.

Another reason as to why I posted that piece of information, is because some people on this board are curious about it. I receive an e-mail, or a post on the board now&then asking how the car/and I do at auto-xes, etc.
Ahmet

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It's all the driver...

[redNeckarsulm2]

No problem, Ahmdretti - didn't mean to ruffle your feathers...

There are tons of reasons to DE - and I'll bet you noticed that some of the prepped cars (like the ones w/slicks) are either A: instructors instructing in THEIR cars (in which case they may not be allowing the students to PUSH it) and B: experienced guys using it as a cheap test&tune days...( and may not want people right behind them on curves for obvious reasons...)
Some folks get nervous trying to learn w/ someone on their ass, and the instructor will have them wave you by so they can focus...

It's apples and oranges - your decreasing lap times are what tell you something, not lap time comparisons between different cars, necessarily.

Was that a NASA event? (they run a lot at VIR)

[1.2gees]

I have to admit that's a possibility, but I did lap a few people in about 35 min. worth of track time. Also, not a single person caught up to me, so I don't think that what you suggest was the case, but I suppose we'll never know. I ran with the more experianced class for one session, and there I had a few people close to my tail, but again, nobody was close to me down the straight(s) where passing was allowed.

This was an SCCA event, with two clubs also running in conjunction. Overall, I recommend this to pretty much anybody who's interested in high-perf driving.

PS: The novice driver is usually not allowed to drive somebody else, it's the instructor who can take the student for a ride in either his own, or the student's car.
Ahmet

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It's all the driver...

[redNeckarsulm2]

Last year there were a trio of Civics tearing up Beech mtn.

[BBailey74]

So who won the Time Trials on sunday? Or did they even have them with the rain? I was bummed I couldn't make it. The south course is the only one I haven't driven there yet.

Brian

[redNeckarsulm2]

I think Ahmet did

[BBailey74]

Originally posted by redNeckarsulm2:
I think Ahmet did

I've got huge, and I mean huge, money against that. Unless they were running a novice group also. Anyone with any real previous track experience would run circles around even the most talented beginner.

Though the group he was running with isn't one of the faster groups out there. Good for beginners but way to much traffic in the faster groups to have any fun.

Still, would have been fun to have instructed down there if I hadn't had to work last weekend.

Brian

PS - hey Ahmet, going to CMP this weekend? 2 more hours of track time for pretty cheap? Has the bug bitten yet??

[1.2gees]

Oh yes, I am hooked!

I don't think I'll be at Carolina Motorsports Park however, that's too long a drive, and I already started working on the car. I love VIR, and planning on going back there with CarGuys, and the BMW club.

As far as I know they held the TT in the rain, although I didn't stay on Sunday. They had them on Saturday as well, I stayed to watch some of it. Patrice Bonquet is an awesome driver at TT, AND auto-x, this guy sets best time of day regularly, with a street legal 911 RS replica. It was something to watch him blow by modified vettes!

My class was pretty much novices, such as myself, with not too much experiance on track. I did get to drive with the moderately experienced group for one session, since I got there late on Sunday, and missed one of my own runs, in the designated run group.

I agree, experience makes all the difference. I can't wait until I do more though. As a few guys have told me, once you start, this thing is addictive, to the point where it'll thin your wallet more than you thought it ever could, I believe it now!

BBailey, perhaps you'll be at VIR for CarGuys?
Ahmet

PS: I didn't, and cannot do time trials yet, the car needs safety equipment, and I need more track time!

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It's all the driver...

[redNeckarsulm2]

Ironically - there is a thread about this very thing (attitude at DE) on the 924/944 list on Rennlist today...

(obviously, not much is happening at work...)