what hp can a 944/944S2/968 make in mild trim?

lateapex911 · 05-26-2006, 11:01 PM

Hey-
I usually hang in the 911 section, but I'm looking for a little water cooled input. SCCA is considering a new IT class called ITR. It will be the fastest Improved touring class. I'm considering the jump from my current ITA car if the class goes through.

Some cars considered for the class are the porsche 911SC, 944S 944S2 and 968.

My questions for you water cooled gurus, are:

What are these engines capable of?

The rue book allows a balance and blueprint, .5 point compression bump, .40 over, slight port matching factory valve job, open exhaust, open air cleaner, and any ECU that can fit in the stock box.

Which of the engines will show the best gains? The 968 3.0 liter engine is stock with 236 hp, where the same size engine in the 944S@ is 208. Why the increase?

Now, the cars are classed at different weights, so if each engine gains the same, then the lighter car would be better, as the formula palns for a certain hp gain from stock.

I know these are weird questions,adn i am a watercooled newbie, but I appreciate any thoughts or directions. Who is the best source for build info...Milledge?

Enthuzed1 · 05-26-2006, 11:37 PM

hey, welcome to watercoolness.....get it? eh?
anyways, I believe the 968 gains that extra HP and Torque mainly because unlike the S2 engine, the 968 engine has Variable Valve Timing . Maybe engine compression and other things offer some help, but i'm pretty sure that's the main contributor.
Also, the 968 weighs about 200 lbs. more in stock condition and comes with a 6 speed tranny as opposed to the S2's 5 speed. Factor these things in and they both come pretty darn close.
Since you mentioned chips, I don't believe their's a Wilks chip for the 968, but i'm sure theirs one for the S2, but alas, theirs some crazy things going on concerning the big guy right now......

lateapex911 · 05-26-2006, 11:49 PM

Great info...it all helps, as I'm just getting my feet wet. (Bad joke there), LOL

Wilks chip? Big guy? I assume the big guy is wilks?

Geo31 · 05-27-2006, 08:23 AM

Jake, give me a call. I'll get you pointed in the right direction.

The FR Wilks chips are not going to gain you much at all. The Spec 944 guys have tried them and only get a couple of hp, but they do smooth out the power band is what I'm told. JME can burn you a chip I'm quite sure, although I'm sure you will pay a fair bit more.

The Chris · 05-30-2006, 08:11 AM

FR Wilks chips most certainly make a difference (seen it first hand).

There are also various chips for the 968 which perform well (racer-x, etc).

Geo31 · 05-30-2006, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Chris
FR Wilks chips most certainly make a difference (seen it first hand).

Post the dyno sheets.

The Spec 944 guys have dynoed them several times. They them to be worth 2 hp and some smoothing of the power band.

BananaClip · 05-30-2006, 08:59 AM

I've heard a good aftermarket air cleaner and ecu on a 968 is good for another 15hp or so, but i believe thats about all the beneficial work you can do to one of those engines without forced induction.

The S2 motor might benefit a little more from the compression and valve job, but I doubt you would see more than 220~ from one of these engines with that work.

Mike Markota · 05-30-2006, 09:30 AM

ProMax has a chip for the 968 that was featured in a recent excellence irrc

Eldorado · 05-30-2006, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Geo31
Post the dyno sheets.

ok.

thanks to CJ:

Thanks to 944 Boy:

if i come across any more, i'll post 'em.

The Chris · 05-30-2006, 09:53 AM

Thanks Eldorado, saved me some searching

legion · 05-30-2006, 10:09 AM

What class do you put 951s in?

AA_Ezra · 05-30-2006, 10:43 AM

Cool, Thank's Eldorado, Both sheets look pretty close to being the same. I'm not sure how to read those exactly. But in certain spots the hp increase is abotu 15hp and, more hp in the begning. Hence the " More low end" power described from the wilks chip

2 thumbs up!

JivenJim · 05-30-2006, 01:08 PM

968 with Light flywheel. Racer X 968 chip. K&N air Filter. The Finish line says it's faster. Even against many 911's. Especially if she's light.

lateapex911 · 05-30-2006, 01:14 PM

Those curves are intersting.

In the first, I might submit that something is wrong in the stock baseline. 117???? And a chip added 20HP??? Thats about 18%?? Hard to understand.

The second is more representative. The curve was certainly filled in....I imagine it drives much better, even though the peak number wasn't affected.

Geo31 · 05-30-2006, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lateapex911
Those curves are intersting.

In the first, I might submit that something is wrong in the stock baseline. 117???? And a chip added 20HP??? Thats about 18%?? Hard to understand.

More generous than the thoughts going through my head. It's the only dyno chart I've seen for a 8v chip that makes more than a couple hp. Something does not seem to be right. What chip is this? BTW, if this is real, I will be ordering one. There is no other mod that can make that sort of hp in IT trim.

Quote:

Originally posted by lateapex911
The second is more representative. The curve was certainly filled in....I imagine it drives much better, even though the peak number wasn't affected.

This is exactly like those I've seen before. It's exactly what I've said. Gain a couple of hp and smooth out the curve.

Eldorado · 06:15 PM

both are wilk chips..
here's another..

Here is an Excel file of the same dyno graphs in chart form as analyzed by someone over at rennlist..

not to mention it cuts off about half a second on the 30-60 acceleration time.. and about a quarter second off of the 60-80 acceleration time... that means from 30-80, you save nearly an entire second of acceleration...

lateapex911 · 05-31-2006, 08:54 AM

Well, looking at all those it is easy to see some correlations, and some oddities. But....

it shows that the first graph shown, where the hp jumps a huge amount, has to be thrown out. It is not representative of anything that is real word. Something was wrong with the baseline pull. Period.

bleucamaro · 05-31-2006, 02:06 PM

I have an SMT-7 piggyback on my S2 and it works really well. If you remove it from its box and modify a stock DME case, I'm pretty sure it would fit, then you get unlimited tuning possibilities. Are you restricted to using the stock barn-door AFM, or can you go to a MAP or MAF sensor?

Geo31 · 05-31-2006, 05:19 PM

Stock AFM. The ECU box must remain unmodified on the outside (including the connector). Inside is free.