968 or 951 for Street and Occasional Track Car

[motobrett]

I am 99% convinced I want a 951. There is a nice one close that a forum member is selling (clarkeph) and I may make him an offer.

But...

Before I do that, what are your opinions about getting a 968 instead...the 951 seem to be priced similar to 968.

Pros:

951 easy to make more power
968 is newer
???

Cons:

???

Anyone care to chime in?

[motobrett]

No plans to daily drive the car...

[motobrett]

oops lost my brain for a minute...

great threads through searching

[Razorback1980]

Both are good cars. A couple more moving parts to a turbo, but I think the biggest reason I wouldn't go with the 968 is parts availability. They didn't make them that many years and it's hard to find recycled parts and when you do, they are usually pricey. Many here have talked about how great the engine in a 968 is and I believe that is probably true, but I want parts availability when I'm looking at an older car. The other thing I like about the 951 is there are a lot of people here that can help you with your problems and there are some 968 folks as well, just not as many. I would go with the 951.

[Techno Duck]

Drive both, the power delivery of each is completley different and you might like one over the other.

[flash968]

was an easy choice for me - no 951 cabs came to the US, and i did not want a hatchback - i also prefer the lines of the 968 more, and it looks more current - 6spd was a big plus too

a thought on pricing - you can be pretty sure that any 968 priced like a 951 is going to be a basket case - i would steer clear of any 968 priced below 12k, but that gets you a very clean 951

[motobrett]

Thanks for the replies. Seems like this is one of those long term debates: chevy vs ford, Nikon vs canon...

I did see some 968s on this forum selling for 10-12 though and they seemed well off.

I am leaning toward 951, for reasone stated above.

Ultimately driving each back to back is the true test I think.

[flash968]

i've seen well over 100 968s in person now, in all states and conditions, having travelled across the country for 968 events - i've looked at at least twice that number online - at no time did i ever find a $10k car that was not in need of a LOT of work

i just went through this with a 14k mile cab - bought it for 19k (stole it really) and spent another 6k bringing it up to snuff - 25k in all - that's what it takes to get a really good low mileage cab - about 20k to get a really good low mileage hatchback - drop 5k each if you are willing to live with blemishes or high mileage, but you'll still spend a total of 20k for a cab and 15k for a hatchback within the first year of ownership, just to get a solid runner - i have not yet seen an exception

you get what you pay for - a $10k 968 hatchback is going to soak you over a very short time - a $10k 951 hatchback is pretty much done

in the end it's really about which car you prefer, both in looks and driving - drive both - look closely at both - do it again, and then again - both cars have their plusses and minuses - it's very subjective

[legoland951]

I would NOT use a 968 as a race car especially a cabriolet. Its heavier, has more chassis flex, its not as safe, and would cost you an arm and a leg to fix (I assure you if you have enough track time, you will damage your car mechanically and/or cosmetically). A 968 is a slower race car for the $ and year is irrevalent since you have to redo everything on a race car anyways or you will blow it up on the track (ask guys who have taken their street cars on the track a few times). A 968 is a better street car but if I had to choose a car to toss around the track, I would not want to thrash a 968.

[flash968]

funny - i am actually planning on building a race car out of a 968 cab chassis because it will end up being STIFFER than a hatchback - the 968 cab has a lot of reinforcing in it that the hatchback model does not - once a roll cage is installed, and the top and such removed, with no obstructions in the way, the car is actually going to be LIGHTER than the hatchback as well

as it stands now though, even in my street car, i have all but eliminated the chassis flex with some additional bolt in braces

that being said, the 951 can be less expensive for certain, but once you start playing around with boost, all bets are off in a race car, and the 968 engine is actually then more reliable - the 951 tranny ratios can be better though, depending on the track - clutches are a major drag though, compared to the mere 3 hrs for a 968 clutch - wheel sizes are better on the 968 too

if i were building a budget race car, and was really stuck on the idea of a 944 based platform, i'd go with a regular 944 - there is a great class in NASA

[968TomR]

I was recently in your situation - looking for a water cooler p-car that was primarily for the track. I began my search exclusively looking for 951s. I was told I could find them under $10k in really good condition - and I can tell you that I never did. If the condition was good the price was at least 11.
I expanded my search to S2's and encountered the same conditon.

I finally settled on a 92 968 with 80K that I got for around $12. I would agree with Razorback Tom that the parts are harder to come by and therefore cost a bit more, but I do prefer to look of the 968.

Any of these cars will make you very happy - so good luck in your shopping.

Tom

[flash968]

a few other things to consider:

a 92 968 will have the smaller rods - not a problem on the street - could be though on the track

a 92 968 will have R-12 AC (unless it has already been converted) - same with any 951 - 93 on had R-134

lsd is a must for the track - 92 968s had a clutch type lsd available - 93 on was torsen - not all cars came with lsd - look for options 220 and 221

in 17s, the 993 Cup wheels, which are what came on the later 968s, are each a couple of pounds lighter than the C2 Turbo wheels, which are what came on the early 968s - not important on the street, but can make a big difference on the track

[legoland951]

The 968 cab is strengthened not exceed the non convertible while the strengthening costs in weight and for a street car you probably wouldn't want to remove the top to save weight. On the big track at Button Willow and Willow Springs, you can get to about 130 at the end of the straight and the cab has horrible aerodynamics along with head protection expecially from debris if you are unfortunately enough to roll over. If you have a full cage in a street car, you wouldn't want to drive without a helmet as an impact can smack your head against the cage. My cage leaves me about 8 inches from head to bar on the side suport so it doesn't take much of a side impact without a helmet to kill me. I don't think there is going to be an argument between a cab race car versus a hard top but on the street, a cab is definitely more styling.

[flash968]

we're getting WAY off topic, but as long as we are, the cab race car i am planning will definitely be lighter AND stiffer AND more aerodynamic than the hatchback

of course, it will be a tube frame on a 968 cab tub - full tilt front end - fiberglass panales everywhere - no windshield - no doors - enclosed cockpit - being a cab, fewer tubes are required to achieve the same protection, because there is nothing to dance around, so the net weight is easy to keep much lower than the hatchback- by removing the windshield, 40% of the frontal area goes away

with a supercharged 3.2 liter, it sounds like a hoot to me

[CJFusco]

^^ That does sound like a hoot. You should start a "build thread" once you start the project.

My vote, for a track car, would be a 951. It is a popular choice for a reason - easy power, plenty of parts availability, and there is a lot of knowledge floating around about how to fix them. Not knocking 968s, of course - I would LOVE to have one as a daily car - but the 951 is a road rocket that, I believe, would be easier and cheaper to run on a track.

[flash968]

could be - the question is really what class to run in, and what are you going to do to the setup - playing with a turbo is a slippery slope

on a turbo, as soon as you start messing with boost, you run into issues - heat is a huge problem - the drivetrain isn't really up to the job of handling increases either - the suspension is barely able to handle the stock power, let alone adding any (that's a porsche thing, not limited to this model)

so, "cheaper" is relative - on a 968, there is a very real ceiling to mods, without adding forced induction, so the cost gets limited by default

that's why i mentioned the normally aspirated 944 as a less expensive, self limiting option

[AeroSS_87]

I like the look of a 968, as someone earlier said it looks more up to date. the engine is a wild beast, but the 951 is the better way to go. if anything, just because you can push 500 hp not too terribly hard with a few thousand bucks. no way would a 968 ever see that without completely going ground up with the engine. good luck in your search.

[flash968]

i don't know about a "few thousand bucks" - this is what i was talking about when i said "slippery slope"

to handle 500hp, you are in for a complete redesign of the suspension and a LOT of chassis work - failure to do that results in a very substandard car - the difference in doing it right and slapping stuff in there is HUGE - just for starters, all of those rubber bushings have to go

i've spent about 12k already on the suspension alone, just to handle 280hp - the 951 has essentially the same suspension, so it would be the same cost

it adds up fast

[legoland951]

I am not going to continue this pissing match as I like the 968 for what it is just like I do a 951 so this is my last post on this topic.

It costs the same amount for the 951 or 968 suspension as they have identical suspensions as you stated.

It costs more to produce hp normally aspirated compared to a turbo, period (costs a set of chips and boost controller to get 280hp which is much less than the cost to get 280hp for a 968).

It costs more in weight in the cab to have the strength of a hardtop and I am not going to draw force diagrams to prove what most people know as fact (I know no one would suggest a tube chassis street car with no windshield and it costs the same to do that for a 951 or 968 cab.

It costs much more in parts for a 968 and after owning many 928s, 968s, and over 100 944/951s, I know what the parts cost. The 951 cam is the same as an early 944, which I throw away for free. The blocks are all interchangeable for all 2.5L engines turbo or n/a except some early 83s. The cranks are all identical for 2.5L engines except the 951S having a different part number. I sell my spare 951 engine for $550 where the last 968 engine I sold was $3000. The 951 tranny is $500 where the 968 tranny is $1500.

Again, I don't care for this to be a pissing match between a 968 and a 951 neither am I trying to make this into a personal debate. I am merely answering his question to the best of my ability.

For what you paid for your suspension, I can build my 88 951 with reliable 400 RWHP INCLUDING the purchase price of my car, new clutch, and full coil over suspension along with tarret sway bars and delrin. This is what I recommend as a STREET CAR you can take on the track and have fun with.

[flash968]

no pissing match - i'm just trying to paint a realistic picture - there are plusses and minuses to each car - what is right for me is not necessarily right for the next guy - we also all have our own preferences

i am also not arguing the costs of adding power at all - clearly it's easier and cheaper to add boost (even after factoring in the additional cooling required)

it does require the other upgrades though, and i question getting it done for "a few thousand bucks"

i could do the math too, and the tube requirements are far less in a cab than in a hatchback - the net is about 40% less weight in tubing to achieve the same stiffening and protection as a cage would have in a hatchback - been there done that - again though, this is a very use specific car, and way off topic

i love saving money - i would love to know how you could get my suspension, which would be necessary to handle 400hp, into a 951, and add in everything else, and come out for the same cost as what i spent on my suspension alone - a 951, properly set up to handle 400hp, would cost about 25k - i see a lot of people throwing power into the cars without making the additional necessary upgrades to suspension and brakes - presumably it is because it is relatively cheap and easy, and most of the owners are young and on limited budgets, or just don't know any better - i did the same thing 30 years ago when i first started in this business, so it seems a logical assumption - however, this is not a good idea, and is very dangerous - i learned the hard way, as do many - it is also why i see an endless string of wrecked 951s

i like the 951 - i've built a couple - i would love to play with another one, if only i could find a way to get a cab done and be smog legal - but i don't have any illusions about what it costs to set it up right, and i won't do it any other way

driving the 2 cars is entirely another matter - they drive very differently - if this is a first race car, i would absolutely not get anything turbocharged - there is far too much to pay attention to learning how to drive - adding the learning of boost control and gear matching is hard enough with an experienced driver, but a novice will have a very hard time staying on the track

this is why i recommended a normally aspirated 944 as an option

again, i'm not interested in a pissing match either - this decision should be a well informed one, considering multiple perspectives, and specific to the needs and desires of the individual