Renegade V8 Hybird conversion

[bobe]

Does anyone know how well or difficult it is to install a GM V8 small block into a 944 using the renegade conversion kits. Cost wise it seems the same as replacing timing belts,water pump front and rear seals etc etc.
Thanks.


Here's my candidate

[flash968]

this kind of thing pops up all the time - while it can be done, it is NEVER as cheap as you think, and a lot more involved than people like to tell you when they are trying to sell you on the idea

fitting the engine in the car is the easy part - getting it to work right without ripping things apart or be a complete mess to drive is the trick

[bobe]

I'm finding it difficult to find any manuals or plans showing the procedure in depth.

[flash968]

well, i'm not surprised - there isn't a clear cut path to this - i've seen a few, and they are all different - i've done a number of V8 conversions in cars before - i've toyed around with doing it in the 968 - no matter what car or what engine though, it's never simple or straight forward

the first thing to do is figure out how much power you want, over what rpm range, and with what engine - then you get to set up the chassis to handle the extra weight and torque - then you get to set the suspension to carry that load - then you get to figure out what driveline components are needed (transaxle, etc) to handle the power - then you get to figure out what brakes you need to stop that beast

getting the picture?

to do a V8 conversion right, you are looking at anywhere from $15k for the most docile to $25k for a decent setup

otherwise you end up with a piece of junk that may be fun to stomp on the pedal, but is a real pain to drive

think this one over carefully and know what you are getting into - a good plan, with a good budget is a good start

[krystar]

i'm just guessing here but

step 1: attach custom bell housing and motor mounts to LS1
step 2: install LS1
step 3: ?????
step 4: profit

heheh. there's a whole bunch of wiring for the sensors and the ECU. there's also a new clutch setup u gotta put in. then you gotta run everything else from throttle cable to radiator hoses to vacuums lines to hookups for electrical switches everywhere.


when i considered a LT1 swap, i figured it'd basically cost 5k immediately and then another 5k down the road.

[krystar]

Originally Posted by flash968

to do a V8 conversion right, you are looking at anywhere from $15k for the most docile to $25k for a decent setup

is that figure by a shop or DIY?

[flash968]

there are those who will say "it doesn't cost that much", but they always want to put in a used engine (always a very bad idea) or say that their time doesn't cost anything (never true)

used engines are never a good idea, because unless you know the history of the engine, regardless of mileage, you never know the condition of the insides, and without that, you could be having to spend a LOT more fixing it in a car that now nobody else knows how to work on

as for doing it yourself on the presumption that your time is free, even in this economy and many finding spare time on their hands, remember that any time you spend doing something yourself is time taken away from something else - that time has value

even as a DIY, and looking only at parts, figure an engine will cost $4k - a decent drivetrain another $3k - add necessary chassis work $2k - add new beefed up suspension and brakes $3-4k - we are up to $12-13k and have not yet addressed adaptation to the car or tires and wheels uprated to handle the power

remember that i am presuming that you actually want something civilized and not a rattle trap that can't stop or turn

[jhelgesen]

http://porschehybrids.pbwiki.com/1982+through+1985+Porsche+944+Turbo+and+NA+models

[speedracing944]

Figure $5k-$10K for parts and your labor.

Ask on www.porschehybrids.com

Speedy

[SolReaver]

ANOTHER v8 conversion thread......

One word...NO.

OK, I grant you that you COULD spend upwards of 2500 for a timing belt job. However even at its worst, It will be less Time, Money, and Agro than a V8 conversion. Also, If you do the belts yourself you get it for a lot less. (duh)

Although the 2.5 engine is kinda a maintinace whore, It is a sweet running and sounding engine. The weight balance and power it delivers is admirable.

Very few of these conversion projects ever really get it perfect, there are soo many compromises that they just don't tell you about.

OK, so you wanna do it anyway.....Visually inspect a 944 that has been converted with the kit. Talk to the owner and ask what he/she thinks about it and how much it really cost. If the car is owned by the same person, or a friend / relative of the person selling the kit...RUN AWAY.

[emoore924]

There's one on eBay right now with an LS1 conversion. Looks pretty clean but you never know I guess. Just search for 944 LS1 or 944 V8 or something like that.

I guess my thought is that the seller might be a good resource for information or advice regarding such a conversion. Or you could just buy his, finished and sorted, for $15k.

No affiliation of course...

[flash968]

of all of the 944 based V8 conversions i have seen so far, i have only seen ONE that was close to right - ALL of the others were unfinished, underdeveloped messes, including the black car renegade brought to a show a couple of years ago - they hadn't even worked out the throttle cable - sure the owners of all these cars thought they were the cat's meow - what else would they say after spending a ton of time and money? "here is my piece of junk i dumped $15k into and drives like crap"?

if they are so great, why are so many continually popping up for sale?

there is a right way and a wrong way to build a car - the question is "what do you want to drive?" - if you want to do it right, and have a car that is like a production V8 performer, it is going to cost you - i am certain that it can be done, is a decent idea for a very fun car to drive, but is not a simple process or cheap

or, you could just stuff something in like we did when we were kids, with pintos and vegas with small blocks, get some giggles for a while, and then dump it for something that was properly sorted out

it's your dime and your time

[SolReaver]

Yaknow, I could buy a LOT of Porsche for 15K, and for the aggro you will go through, you could get a 928, AND a Jaguar. (yes, it is THAT much work) or 3 (three) 944s. Hec, you could pick up one of those fancy-schmancy newer Porsches! (but what would be the fun in that?)

BTW, the reason that you see conversions up for sale is that they keep changing hands when owners get sick of em or just can't deal with the BS anymore. I have seen the same ones up for sale again and again. Kinda makes ya go "hmmmm." It also looses points with me when these showcars are trailered in.

And why an american V8? why not a more sensible engine in a similar weight class? I mean , if you are going to loose original equipment points at the concourse, what is wrong with a Vtec or something (just throwing it out there, not advocating). Better yet, why not beef up a Porsche engine? Those turbo 944s's have more power than ya need and you can still corner and brake.

When you do an engine swap, you are off the map, on your own, good freakin luck. unless I see with my own eyes a working conversion with 100 K or more I am skeptical. It is one thing to pop a V8 in a Vega (done that), or a Mustang (that too) because you are putting Ford in Ford or Chevy in Chevy. Putting Chevy in Porsche is just asking for a major hurt. I have seen soo many bad conversions...and they are all such a shame because it puts perfectly good Detroit Iron into perfectly good German steel and manges to ruin both in the process, wasting 2 cars for the price of 5.

Besides, the stock engine is nice when you get it running right. I wouldn't trade her purr for a 327 rumble (although it is sweet) it would just sound wrong. Put a 350 in a Nova, now THAT is a combination! or a 327 in a Malibu. Drop a Cleveland in a Cougar (Va-freakin-Room). Get an old Impala and cruise up and down the street with that sweet mellow tone lulling you. (been there, done that, got the T shirt AND the mug)

But please, preserve the integrity of these proud semi-classics. Render unto Ceaser what is Ceasars.

Well, thanks for listening to my rant, It is my 300th post so I thought I would let loose. " THIS... IS..... PORSCHE!!! " (movie ref to the film 300, for those of you with no life)

[jhelgesen]

bobe, you picked the wrong forum to get actual advice on this subject. PM me if you want info.

[flash968]

lol - oh, i don't know about that - certainly there are purists who would resist such a thing on its face - there are also back yard DIY guys who will try anything - there are also those in every area in between - as long as preferences are stated, advice is just that - gathering information from multiple sources and opinions is what these forums are about

certainly the project can be done - what a particular individual thinks of it, at whatever level it is done, is very subjective

personally, rattles, squeaks, unkempt wiring, plumbing and such, as well as unbalanced cars are not for me - been there done that - gave them up along with my member's only jackets 20 years ago - i now look for the taught smooth precision of a well built car - i'm thinking about a ferrari at the moment, for that very reason - even the E46 M3 i have is better to me in many respects than any of the 944 series cars - that being said, i still love both of my 968s

on the other hand, somebody else might think it is just fine to stuff a big engine in a 944, and not bother with the rest - it sure seems that plenty of people are doing it

that's why baskin robbins has 31 flavors, right?

[halik]

Originally Posted by flash968

there are those who will say "it doesn't cost that much", but they always want to put in a used engine (always a very bad idea) or say that their time doesn't cost anything (never true)

used engines are never a good idea, because unless you know the history of the engine, regardless of mileage, you never know the condition of the insides, and without that, you could be having to spend a LOT more fixing it in a car that now nobody else knows how to work on

as for doing it yourself on the presumption that your time is free, even in this economy and many finding spare time on their hands, remember that any time you spend doing something yourself is time taken away from something else - that time has value

even as a DIY, and looking only at parts, figure an engine will cost $4k - a decent drivetrain another $3k - add necessary chassis work $2k - add new beefed up suspension and brakes $3-4k - we are up to $12-13k and have not yet addressed adaptation to the car or tires and wheels uprated to handle the power

remember that i am presuming that you actually want something civilized and not a rattle trap that can't stop or turn

That's a HORRIBLY flawed generic argument. That's like saying you should never buy anything used, because your don't know the history of it.

95% of people here have a porsche with a used engine in it.

[flash968]

not flawed at all - i NEVER buy anything used without knowing the history of it - heck, i rarely buy anything used at all - if i buy a used car, i pretty much tear it apart and go through it with new stuff - i did that with both of the 968s, and they only had 22k and 14k on them

i would absolutely never put a used engine in anything, history or not, especially in a car i planned to drive hard

[krystar]

maybe your spare time is worth more than everyone elses.

my spare time would be spent watching tv and playing video games. so it IS pretty much free. if the time was worth something to me, then it wouldn't be my spare time. i know my watching tv certainly isn't worth the $50-$100/hr for some shop to work on it.

[halik]

Originally Posted by flash968

not flawed at all - i NEVER buy anything used without knowing the history of it - heck, i rarely buy anything used at all - if i buy a used car, i pretty much tear it apart and go through it with new stuff - i did that with both of the 968s, and they only had 22k and 14k on them

i would absolutely never put a used engine in anything, history or not, especially in a car i planned to drive hard

It's a car, not the space shuttle. The worst and least probable scenario is the car won't start. Let me guess, you also have all the work done by a shop, right?

Crate ls1 will run you $4-5G, or you can get 4-5 used LS1s for the same price.

[aftermath]

I have one, I didnt do the work, I bought it this way, $8500 with a lot of 951 parts ( suspension\transaxle ). Talk to Scott at Renegade if your considering it, he can answer a lot of questions. There is more to it than the conversion kit, brake boosters, etc. The car I bought was smoking fast\fun, till it developed a bottom end knock at the track, bad engine? my driving? or oil issues from putting a ls1 into a lightweight 944? Dunno. If you want more power, get a ppi done on a s4 or 951 or something. If youve got a car and the engine goes, then a conversion buys you a lot of power for the money, more power than you need on the street. PS: Dont go sbc, go ls1, much lighter. My car has a stock ls1, 320hp at the crank and I was running with 951s that have 300hp at the rear wheels ( I have the torque ).