Another 944 WILL NOT START ... Worked fine before

MGB · 02-03-2009, 02:33 PM

Hello Guys and gals, Et. al

We have a 1983 944 and it worked fine ... fun to drive ... until the water pump gave out. Thinking that I save myself the hassle of coming up with the repair charges that were quoted ... I've entered into doing the associated tasks myself.

Now [with great appreciation to all of the insights provided online] ... my water pumps in, I finally found the rectangular window for TDC [the portion of the bell housing located above in the engine chasis/firewall verses from underneath the car] this 83' will not crank/ turn over?

Again ... thanks to many informed/experienced minds ... I've tested the DME for its click ... its not the DME ... set Timing to TDC 15 X times [... that's not it =)] ... Getting spark to all 4 plug units ... fuel pump O.K. ... yet, even my attempts to push start the car haven't worked

The starter was tested/ checked at Auto-zone [Free] and they claimed that it passed ... but honestly ... I'm not sure that the "bendix" gear is engaging the flywheel: moreover, there's a huming/ spinning sound ... does this indicate that the starter's got to be replaced and/or be rebuilt? I don't mean hum of fuel pump ... but more a spinning whine and every once a while a bogging out sort of exasperating in the air tube

This aside with regard to the starter ... again ... it doesn't even want to kick over with attempts at the "push start"

Question:

Other than "sell that paperweight" ... Can anyone ... please ... offer me advise to actions toward a resolution

Thank You,

Mike

MGB · 02-03-2009, 02:35 PM

Anyone?

Zero10 · 02-03-2009, 02:48 PM

I think you have lost a lot of us here...
Why do you keep setting it back to TDC?

Have you verified that the engine is actually turning when you turn the key? You said you get spark to all 4 so I assume so, but then you said you don't think the bendix is engaging, so that would mean the engine isn't turning. Without the engine turning there is no way you would have spark at all 4 plugs.

Also, allow more than 2 minutes before posting "Anyone?" its rude.

krystar · 02-03-2009, 02:54 PM

so the starter is turning but the solenoid isn't pushing it forward?

u can try tapping it with a hammer. some ppl say it's bad to do so...but if the starter's dead, you're not gonna be losing much.

what about fuel? is there pressure at the rail? injectors firing? and compression too. although it'd kind of hard to diagnose w/o a starter.

krystar · 02-03-2009, 02:55 PM

oh yea zero's right...the engine has to be turning if the spark is there. so it's turning over. just not catching.

verify fuel pressure and injectors and after that...it should be just a matter of timing.

robert944 · 02-03-2009, 02:58 PM

How did the water pump fail? Did the water pump seize, causing the cam belt to strip teeth? Which means you bent valves. Does the engine sound like a sewing machine when you turn it over?

MGB · 04:29 PM

Greetings to each of you ... and thank you for your mutual interests in being of assistance

Firstly, the water pump sort of ruptured one evening ... noticing that the temperature needle had risen into the higher portion of the yellow paint [in synchronized manner with the incessant fan and sudden change in power and/or "feel"] ... I parked immediately. There was water dripping ... and thanks to someone nearby with a sprinkler system on ... as I replenished the loss of water ... it came out almost as quickly. Still I couldn't be sure ... afterall ... it may have been a hose. We had AAA tow us back home on a flatbed [p.s. the car still started then ... no problem] ... and I parked it.

Raising the front end on to jack stands and removing the protective shield ... the water came trickling down from the water pump. Perhaps, it is likely that I should have mentioned I'd already replaced the slow leaking radiator ... which kind of more or less [irrationally] built up my confidence to change out the water pump ... a little more of how much I don't know.

We (my wife and I) sent off for tools from Bruce Arnn (www.arnnworx.com) and then slowly and gingerly began to attempt replacing the damaged pump. It was a gone'r alright.

For two weeks I kept checking for the TDC from underneath the car ... peering down into a round window off of the bell housing =). It wasn't possible to see the "marker line" in the square notch at bottom center of the Bell housing either. It was only after contacting a benevolent mechanic "Mark" off of Robertson in west LA (Google search for porsche repair) that I located the proper RECTANGULAR window as displayed in the 944 manual PDF available online [located near the firewall from up above looking downward]. Yeah ... naive, clueless, and confused, I'm attempting to reassemble things and start the motor ... all the while being totally off.

The only time it did fire [... very briefly] it was not the same purring kit kat I'd known and again ... immediately shut it down ... I knew enough to know that much at least. Anyway, the cam turns and was set to its TDC mark along with the crankshaft ... properly ... finally.

I thought that the risk of destroying/damaging a valve or all of them would prevent the cam from rotating ... and at this point ... feel lousy.

I did read that checking for fuel presence at the end of the rail was good to do and proceded last night to engage that ... in the hope that maybe the car sat too long (2 mo's). But there's fuel going to the injectors ... sure enough.

Thank you ... to each of you again for corresponding ... also I will do my best to appropriate civil blog/thread etiquette ... point duly noted.

Also [THANK GOD] I re-read your comments to notice that the motor turns to produce/register positive ... light flickers ... and thus my starter is okay.

Does this then indicate that I have indeed damaged the valves and that there is not something else e.g. latent vacuum issue ... or anything else?

Aufenbahn · 02-03-2009, 04:35 PM

Maybe you should do a compression test. This (if it has good compression) would verify the operation and condition of the valves. If you have fuel, spark, and compression (and all three at the right time) it will start. Good Luck!

MGB · 02-03-2009, 04:39 PM

I've made a small number of typo-corrections above since moments earlier

My only other question for the time is ... is there any possibility that you guys could reccomend someone in the Los Angeles area ... if a valve job/ replacement is the only measure left to be considered? I know I am not cut-out for that type of a project ... and I'm beginning to really really feel the anguish ... etc.

Thanks for your help.

MGB · 02-03-2009, 04:55 PM

Thank you Andy ... its a funny thing ... hope that is

I'll start the researching and post the results for all to read ... keeping the fingers crossed

Mike

Jeff Laurence · 02-03-2009, 06:35 PM

+1 on compression

Jeff Laurence · 02-03-2009, 07:28 PM

Also, look for vacuum leaks as this amounts to unmeasured fuel.
GL

phoenix_iii · 02-03-2009, 07:43 PM

Does the tach bounce when cranking?

krystar · 02-03-2009, 09:49 PM

so wait....am i reading this correctly? it did briefly run very poorly. but then afterwards u reTDC'ed it? so....it wasn't on TDC when it ran? cause that would have definitely screwed up the valves.

check compression +1000.

AKCJ · 02-03-2009, 10:30 PM

Mike - sounds like you may have tried starting the car with the timing off so that probably would lead to bent valves. Post you compression numbers - it's well worth buying a compression tester if you don't already have one. They're not very expensive.

Whatever you do, don't get down on yourself. It's your car, you were trying to fix it. We all screw up sometimes. It's not that big of a deal in the long run. Look at the bright side - you're working on a porsche!

PS - check out clarks garage if you haven't already.

emoore924 · 02-04-2009, 08:32 AM

If you tried to start the car with the cam out of time with the crank, P(.99) you've bent valves. Sorry.

Do the compression test. That will tell you what's going on.

MGB · 03:56 PM

Hello Gentlemen

... please pardon my absence away ... AGAIN very, very, much appreciation and thanks to each of you for your feedback.

So then ... admittedly I've never before executed a compression test on any vehicle prior to this afternoon's effort. I had to browse the various websearches for directions until coming accross the following link [http://www.911uk.com/viewtopic.php?p=436064&sid=6b81bd101e7a22c3994614cdb6e2fe86]. Notwithstanding, procedural directions are itself included in the packaging ... when and if another individual decides to find themselves as I have.

Naivity aside ... I've done as directed e.g. removed each of the spark plugs; removed the DME relay; disengaged the solenoid lead cable (hotwire that sends charge to distributor to then become disbursed accordingly) from the distributor cap; and wedged the throttle (delicately improvised with another object) into its wide open position: ... thus, turning the key and permitting ignition and compression test [a few seconds per individual cylinder].

The gage was deployed and removed at each of the four spark plug units ... the resulting read for each exactly the same. No activity e.g. the needle never moved.

Now ... if I've done this improperly ... then attempting this again is in proper order ... but at the moment I'm wondering if the valves are themselves either stuck, bent beyond operational capacity, or that I've done something to the cam e.g. like its not even remotely ... set correctly.

I'd never checked to see if the tachometer was active when everything else was returned into place ... I will do this now & post my results for that query.

MGB · 04:00 PM

Okay ... the tachometer oscillates less than 1/16" or even 1/32" and/or doesn't move much at all ... this after returning everything removed and/or adjusted for the compression test.

I have missed something ... but I'm not at all sure what? e.g. I've thought that I put things back correctly and the spark plug adaptor light did flicker 4 or 5 nights ago before.

I'll check through this forum as well as www.clarks-garage.com to see what that could indicate. Again, I didn't run the car that much at all the time it did start ... also ... I know I'll sound crazy for adding this ... but there seems to be two separate OT inscriptions e.g. 1st mark adjacent to a line much like in the photos I've seen: the 2nd faintly visible and with no adjacent line: moreover, closest in proximity to the point where the car actually fired at the one particular setting I shut it down. Does that ring familiar to anyone? No 1/8" mark to align below in the squared notch bottom center of the bell housing and two OT signifiers?

Your consideration greatly appreciated. =)

Jeff Laurence · 02-06-2009, 06:07 PM

Did you have a freind help you? ie you held the gauge while he/she cranked the engine?
Or was the gauge a screw in type? The evidence sure suggests at least 4 bent valves.

MGB · 02-07-2009, 02:00 PM

Thanks Jeff ... no I'd accomplished these findings alone [screw-in type fittings].

Anyway ... that SUCKS!

Know of anywhere to take my fallen angel in the Los Angeles/ Southbay area(?) and/or independent mechanics that could come and help me [I read another post whereby a member suggested this advice to someone else learning as they went ... sounded like great advice to myself as well].

I understand that things (parts) aren't cheap, nor does anyone sacrifice their time for free to strangers [at least on a common basis] ... although everyone here has been absolutely gracious with their time, experience, and feedback [thank you].

Please let me know ... anything will help.