flushed transaxle...Problem Getting Worse

jacketfan89 · 09-08-2009, 08:21 AM

Okay Guys,

I have eliminated the transaxle from the problem. I flushed it out, and the gears shifted VERY smoothly with the car not running with and without the clutch. The fluid in the transmission was dirty, but there was no sign of metal shaving at all...So I don't think my synchros are bad...nor did I ever really think that just because the car wasn't grinding gears, it just wasn't going.

I'm going to check the whole hydraulic system now, although I don't know if that is the problem. Like I said, when I tried to bleed the slave I didn't get any fluid BUT when the clutch is depressed the slave piston moves...so I don't know whats going on there.

If the hydraulic system checks out, whats next??? Is it definitely a clutch failure issue. After the test drive I memorized EVERY symptom I was having. Hopefully someone can diagnose this.

1) Car shifts like butter while off. With and without the clutch.

2) Start the car in Neutral Fine. Shift into Reverse Fine. Shift into First and drive down the driveway. Fine. Try to shift to second...Nothing! The shifter was basically STUCK in first gear.

3) I turned the car off and Started in first with the clutch depressed. The car lurched forward with the clutch fully depressed.

4) When I let off the clutch in First and started giving it some gas, I heard a pop underneath the car.

5)I turned the car off and started in first again. Same results.

6) I was not able to get out of first gear.

What else can I check besides the hydraulics that could be causing this problem THATS NOT the clutch?

Or if its definitely the clutch, is there any way to tell which part?

Thank you guys SO much for the help...

Matt

John_AZ · 09:32 AM

Matt,
Like you first posted you are on many forums.

If you need to get your car on the road and save up for the BIG repair:

I do not suggest getting a used disc as you posted. There are thickness issues. The used disc may be glazed or oil soaked. Do not get a rubber used disc even if it is free (very old). It may be longer than you think to go back and redo the work.

You can get a new disc for ~$150.
You can repack your Throw Out bearing
You can polish the pressure plate or get a cheap EBay unit with out wear to the TO fingers.
The flywheel should be machined ~$40, but can wait.

If you do not ruin the reference sensors or other stuff and can do the work your self, for about $200 in parts.

Otherwise the Sachs Kit you found is a very good price. If you do the complete new kit, machine the FW, replace the RMS, get exhaust manifold header gaskets and new FW bolts. With typical breakage your clutch job DIY will be about $800.

GL
John_AZ
1988 924S + 1987 924S

jacketfan89 · 09-08-2009, 09:52 AM

Is there still a chance that my slaves gone bad? When I look under the car as someone pushes the clutch how far should the slave piston move??? What is it supposed to do? I see it move but it doesn't touch anything or engage anything else? Does the process end with that piston moving??

Rasta Monsta · Rasta Monsta's Garage

Could be broken 'fingers' on your clutch release lever. . .symptoms sound similar.

jacketfan89 · 09-08-2009, 11:46 AM

Pulled the slave cylinder. What is it supposed to be like when I pull it off. The piston is fully out and when I pushed it in a mixture of dirty brake fluid and air shot out of the hole. It seems to have slot of tension but I notice that there is a ring about 1/4" of the way up on the piston where it is all black and dirty. Below that it's silver like new. Does that mean anything?

Can I tell anything from looking in the hole where the starter ws mounted? I don't see any broken pieces.

Rasta Monsta · Rasta Monsta's Garage

Probably can't tell by looking in the hole. My buddy was able to pull the lever on his 951 with the transaxle in the car, but I wouldn't recommend it. The bellhousing needs to come off, so. . .pull the motor or the gearbox.

There was a recent discussion on clutch jobs where a couple people strongly recommended motor pull instead of drivetrain drop.

John_AZ · 09-08-2009, 12:18 PM

If the piston is fully extended, I would rebuild the slave. You might be able to go to NAPA and get a rebuild kit. The seal cup inside of the slave can get damaged when the piston is fully extended. If NAPA does not have the kit, try an import parts house or online.
If the bore is not pitted, a rebuild should work.

Here are instructions.
http://www.944online.com/pdf/944slaverebuild.pdf

GL
John_AZ

jacketfan89 · 09-08-2009, 12:46 PM

The Bore looks great. I took it apart and got all the gunk out of the inside...but there are no scratches or dents inside. I was able to get air out of the bleeder now..So that is unstopped. I will call napa now and see if anyone has a rebuild kit. I'll rebuild it tonight and put it on and bleed the whole system with new brake fluid. Do you recommend dot 3 or dot 4 fluid?

John_AZ · 09-08-2009, 01:04 PM

If you can find DOT 4 (non-synthetic) do it. If you are just wanting to get on the road with out bleeding the four brakes use a pint of cheap DOT 3. When you do it all then decide. Dot 4 is a higher temp fluid for heavy braking. Some Quality DOT 3 like GUNK have a higher temp as well.

GL
John_AZ

jacketfan89 · 09-08-2009, 01:07 PM

Okay, I just talked to Auto Atlanta, to see if they may the rebuild kit. They are one of the few places around here that specialize in porshce. I told him what was going on, and he seems to think that the clutch is shattered, and the reason that I am able to shift for a few times is because the parts heat up and expand and thats what is blocking me from shifting. Does that sound right, or is he just trying to get me to buy a new clutch kit??

Rasta Monsta · Rasta Monsta's Garage

I would listen to John before I would listen to anyone at AA. . .

jacketfan89 · 09-08-2009, 04:09 PM

Okay Guys,

I decided to call it a night and put the slave cylinder back onto the car....well I put it back together installed it on the car...bled the brakes...and went to bleed the slave and as soon as I had my dad put his foot on the clutch it like clicked to the floor...wierd! Its not pushing the piston in the slave cylinder and its like there is a rubber band pulling it to the floor and as soon as you put a little pressure on the clutch pedal, it snaps down to the floor.

Did I put the slave on wrong? Did I kill the master cylinder trying to bleed the brakes? Maybe the slave cylinder WAS going bad and when I took it apart and put it back together I killed it for good?

Is the pedal going straight to the floor like elastic a sign that the slave cylinder has gone bad? Its not leaking or anything, Its just like the clutch isn't pumping any fluid into the slave.

Rasta Monsta · Rasta Monsta's Garage

Bleeding the clutches on these cars is a ***** without the proper tools. I use a Motive Powerbleeder (great tool to own, especially to flush your brake fluid), some folks report success with vaccuum bleeders.

jacketfan89 · 09-08-2009, 04:32 PM

Is that why the clutch is just going to the floor???

John_AZ · 04:38 PM

How many miles are on the odometer?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacketfan89

Okay, I just talked to Auto Atlanta, to see if they may the rebuild kit. . Does that sound right, or is he just trying to get me to buy a new clutch kit??

Auto Atlanta is known to have high pressure sales staff and they really want to sell things like parts and cars. Can Auto Atlanta match the EBay price you found for the Sachs clutch kit?

PS-Try to buy as much as possible from Pelican. Excellent prices, free shipping* and it pays for the forum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacketfan89

Okay Guys,

I decided to call it a night and put the slave cylinder back onto the car....well I put it back together installed it on the car...bled the brakes...and went to bleed the slave and as soon as I had my dad put his foot on the clutch it like clicked to the floor...wierd!
.

Not wierd, the inner cup seal of the slave is bad and you have air in the clutch lines. If you do a search----this is common and can be fixed. You did nothing wrong.

What to do? If you do not want to try the video of bleeding I gave you a link to, the sure way to bleed the system is to go out and buy a Motive Power Bleeder for $50 from Pelican like Rasta Monsta suggested:
http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/ksearch/pel_search.cgi?please_wait=N&forumid=&threadid=&command=DWsearch&description=Motive+power+bleeder&I1.x=7&I1.y=5&FILTER_944M=ON&FILTER_TECH=ON&FILTER_SUPP=ON&FILTER_ACCE=ON&FILTER_CARE=ON&FILTER_STUF=ON&FILTER_PERF=ON&FILTER_MISC=ON&FILTER_GADG=ON&FILTER_TOOL=ON

Your dad pushing the pedal does not work well on our cars. Did you have the rear end up-----HIGH?
Your only problem was that you wasted time by puting it back together with out getting a rebuilt kit first.

GL
John_AZ

jacketfan89 · 09-08-2009, 05:14 PM

waste time, I did. I am probably just going to order a new slave and master cylinder and be done with it. That way I know they work and they WILL work for a while...With that video you posted of the bleeding...Please tell me that the car doesn't have to be up in the back...cause that stuff will never fit under the car...lol.

I guess I'll replace the master and slave cylinders first and bleed the clutch with the video you showed me...and if that doesn't work, I'm going to do what you said with the new disk and refinishing the other stuff. I can swing $200 right now I just want to get it on the road.

I bought this car as a daily driver...which might not have been the smartest move considering they need some maintenance.

However, I've always loved Porsche...and I've only had the opportunity to ride in them...and when the opportunity to own one that seemed like a great buy that had no problems came up, I took advantage of it, only to be disappointed when I got home...

But that's okay because when I FINALLY get this car BACK on the road...All this time and effort and research and knuckle busting is going to be COMPLETELY worth all of it.

thanks for the help guys,

I'll post again after I install the new slave and master cylinders.

:-D

bazar01 · bazar01's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacketfan89

Is that why the clutch is just going to the floor???

Yes, it is the reason why the pedal goes straight to the floor. Your slave needs rebuilding or replacement and bleeding.
Listen to the good guys here and you will be back on the road soon.

John_AZ · 09-08-2009, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacketfan89

I am probably just going to order a new slave and master cylinder and be done with it. That way I know they work and they WILL work for a while...With that video you posted of the bleeding...Please tell me that the car doesn't have to be up in the back...cause that stuff will never fit under the car...lol.

thanks for the help guys,

I'll post again after I install the new slave and master cylinders.:-D

The video bleed works if you disconnect the clutch MC rod from the clutch petal.
There can be no pressure on the clutch MC from the clutch petal. It is just a clip to remove.

You should still have the rear in the air. Air gets trapped due to the position of the slave. Harbor Freight has cheap pump oil cans.

When the system is bled, attach the clutch MC rod to the clutch petal. To set the correct gap, either use the clutch petal---free play is only 2-3mm
OR
grab the rod while you tighten the 13mm nut---you will "feel' the rod slide around on the Clutch MC cup under the rubber boot. Free play is required--NOT a lot-no binding.

GL
John_AZ

Rasta Monsta · Rasta Monsta's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacketfan89

waste time, I did. I am probably just going to order a new slave and master cylinder and be done with it.

That's what I did.

jacketfan89 · 09-08-2009, 05:38 PM

I Read up on the clutch replacement...Tough Job, but doable. I may take A Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday off and Go at it from 8-8 every day and see if I can knock it out with a few friends. Lets hope that once I get the master and slave cylinders on there it works, but I have a strange feeling that it won't. I just wish there was a way to tell that the clutch was ACTUALLY toast, before dropping transaxle, exhaust and 15 other things...lol.

Oh well, you gotta do what you gotta do. Thanks so much for the help. While I'm waiting on parts to get here, what can I read to get more familiar with the technical terms of these parts. I've heard of all of these parts before, but don't think I could point em out just by looking. Are there diagrams published anywhere or in the Haynes manual?

Thanks again guys,

I'll keep you posted.

Matt