I think my timing is all screwed up, what do I do?
 

I think my timing is all screwed up. Before I worked on the car I had the notch on the cam gear facing up towards the notch on the rear gear housing. I mark on the belt with paint its position on the gear. When I was all done with the work I put the gear back in the same way it came out. I forgot the order of the spark plugs on my DIS CAP so I hooked them up to the best of my memory. I got to start the car and i wont start. I heard a ching noise. I go back to look at the mark on the belt and it moved about a quarter of a turn!!! What do I do now!!! Are my valves screwed? What???

In Nomine dei Patria et Spiritus sainti.....

(shaking head, offering prayer to the gods)

Overkill, check your private messages.

repeat after me, "I will note of the position of things before I take them apart, even if I must take a picture to do so."

"I will always make sure I am positive of crank and cam position before I crank the engine>"

AFJuvat

your valves are toast. maybe you want to send your car over to 944S Boyee's mechanic? He could probably put a down payment on a new 911 with the money you guys are paying him to fix your S's. Sell the damn car and get an 8-valve.

I like you WOLFRPI, you have attitude:) Anyway, think i'm going to get another engine,.... a 951 engine.

Mike I'll call you tomorrow and you can sing to me Amazing Grace:D

By the time you modify your car to accept the turbo engine, you may as well go buy a 951.

Hey, I hope it is amazing grace. Better that than a funeral dirge for your head and bank account.

AFJuvat

WOW..... I can't believe it.......... who else is going to toast their valves???!!!!!

This is getting to be rather silly.

Ok so one S and one regular NA are now toast this month......... who wants to volunteer their turbo.......... :)


oooppppss its another S that bites the dust ..... ouch

try 3 S's

944S Boyee

Overkill

Sternn

After the very recent engine replacement I'm about two years away from a scheduled belt change. Still I'll pull the top cover and look things over every six months. Think I'm closer to replacing the cam and valves as they are a tickn'! Somewhere down the line I have to consider a transmission replacement or rebuild.

Next major event is bleeding all the brakes.

Minor event is replacing one of the u-joints on the steering link. Well I guess that could become major.

In between the waves of disbelief that anyone would;
1. Work on a complicated engine with no idea of what they were doing.
2. Not make any notes on how things were assembled.
3. Not have at least the engine part of the workshop manual.
There are some things that can be done.

First, remove the spark plugs, rotate the engine (with a socket on the crank pulley) until number 1 cylinder is on TDC (check the marks on the flywheel) and use a long screwdriver to make sure the piston is at the top of the stroke. Once you have made absolutely sure the crank is correctly positioned, check the cam pulley and see if the timing marks line up. If they do, the valves
are ok. Then do a compression test. The mark you made on the pulley and belt will not always line up as the belt runs at a different speed to the pulley. It's possible the noise you heard might be due to something being loose.

Otherwise, the cylinder head needs removing and lots of money spent.

Is one crank really enough to waste a valve? I always thought there was a slim chance that very little damage would be done, and since he (in theory) barely got one rev out of it, is it screwed for sure? Just a thought, I could be way off.

There is nothing loose on the engine that could of made that noise. Also, the cam gear and the fly wheel are not going to line up because I pushed the car without the timing belt on the cam eagr. Basically I screwed myself over big time. I have a haynes manual with the factory manuals on my PC, I also have PET. This mistake is due to lack of experience and knowledge. I am just going to get the 951 engine. I know it will cost but it's somthing I wan to do. Plus it will give a reason to replace everything like hoses, belts, fuel ines and on. If my car does not run tomorrow then I will make plans to pull the engine and break it down. I wll learn off that engine. I will use what can be used and sell everything else. It will be fine.

If you rotated the crank with the cam belt off the valves will be bent.

I look forward to the 951 engine installation saga........

Every single person that has asked about dropping a turbo into an NA/S/S2/etc. car has gotten the same response on any web board I've ever read.

It's not worth it.

You're going against common sense, and the experience of dozens of people by doing that. If you "want to be different" than I guess that's fine, just know that it's going to be a painful process.

I don't know your history, but if a timing belt change ends up in destroying a head, I don't want to think about what you're going to do when you try to install that turbo engine.

Valves
 

Sorry to hear about your misfortune. There is a chance that your valves are not bent, albeit a slim chance. I have known folks who have had their timing belts let go with the engine at speed and experienced no valve damage (I would have lost my house betting the would have experienced some damage). On the other hand, I've seen guys damage valves just turning the engine over. In 90% of the cases, anytime the engine gets out of time, there will be damage. However, your odds are a little better since you were only turning the engine over. Put everything back in time and try it again. Make sure you have the plug wires in the correct order. The firing order is 1-3-4-2. Looking at the distributor cap from the front of the car, the top right plug on the cap is #1, then clockwise from there 3-4-2.

Like many of the other folks who have chimed in, I don't think swapping to the 951 engine is a great idea. The logistics are pretty mind-boggling. However, if you are set on going that route, I'll provide you with as much technical assistance as I can.

And, if you do decide to go that route, I might be interested in purchasing your old head, regardless of valve damage (provided the head itself isn't damaged). Since it's an '87 944S I'm assuming it's a 16V head.

Ok, here is what i'm planning on doing,... I am going to to get rid of the engine no matter what. Whether it is good or bad. I am going to payoff all my debt first. Once I have all my debt paid off, I will have all the money in the world to do what ever I want with my car. Question,... What is so hard about turning a NS into a turbo except the fact that it costs alot? My chasis is the same as a 951 chasis, right? I know that I have to replace alot of components to accommodate the 951 engine. What is so hard about a 951 convert? When the time comes, i'll be able to do whatever I want so If it is that hard to do the convert then maybe I will puchase one but if I don't have to I wont. Let me know what is so bad about the convert.

Also, I am going to pull the engine out of the car and dismantle it. I want to clean it up and learn about it. After I am done with it I will sell it to anyone who wants it. I only has 85,000 miles on it. That way I can use the money either towards my new engine or use it to payoff debt. When it's time to build my new car I will knwo alot about it. I really want to build the other car. If I build it I will learn so much. Even If I do mess up, I will be able to afford it:D

I want to welcome everyone to......

"The 944S Positivity Club"

I love it!!! Overkill "may" have bent valves.....his reply, "it will be fine". That's the positive outlook we here at the "944S Positivity Club" look for.

944S Boyeee (me) has lucked out and found a mechanic who worked 10 years for the local Porsche dealership, is a certified Porsche mechanic AND he fixes Porsches "cause he loves these cars". He has quoted me the staggering amout of $300 to put my car back together. He is now a "backyard" mechanic who doesn't advertise his shop in the paper, phone book or anything. A rare, positive find for me!!!

Also - I think Overkill "may" have bent his valves because he made a minor mistake while setting his timing and I bent mine because a timing belt went. We here at the "944S Positivity Club" realize that if we had an 8-valve, a 16-valve or a 640 Valve car, that it wouldn't have made a rats axx difference.

Long live the S and long live positive people!!!


944S Boyeee (Timing belt failure - 8 bent exhaust valves - and the S head is still alive..........I must be the luckiest man alive!! :p )

944SBoyeee, ha ha ha. Dude, I just want my 951, that's all. I said from the very begining that I wanted to turbo charge. If your head is still alive then there is a good chance that mine is too. You never know, there might not be anything wrong with it what so ever but,... thats not going to keep me from my 951 engine. I think when I done learning off the "S" engine that I should be able to tackle a 951 convert. I have the resources,... the factory manuals, pet, haynes, and most importantly you guyz. It will be cool:) Hey 944SBoyeee, when I done with my "S" engine it will be up for sale:D

And yet again, a perfectly good 944 turns into a garden ornament.......................................... ..

No thanks Overkill,

I won't need an engine - I have an S model with only 130,000 klms on it that will be pretty much re-built from the block up. I'll be fine for a long time.

You could sell it to Wolfrpi - then he could take a hammer and beat the engine every night before he goes to bed, then maybe he will get the hatred out of his system :D !!

I say "go for it" on the 951 conversion. Your very young and NOT doing the conversion will rob you of experiences and you will not be truely happy in a 951 unless you built it yourself - I can see that. Once Overkill gets something in his head - he won't be happy with anything less, am I right??? Good luck also.


944S Boyeee

Love it!
 

Well, if nothing else, you've gotta' love that kind of attitude. You're the man! (at least for today).

Anyway, like I said before, I'll provide you with as much technical assistance as I can. Also, from your posts, I notice you're in NJ. I have a friend living in south Jersey who's a very good 944 mechanic. He might be able to provide you some assistance as well.

BTW, one of the things you're going to need is a complete engine wiring harness. If you can't find an engine that comes with a harness, I think I know where there's one available right now.

As far as the logistics of conversion go:

Completely different engine:
Completely different DME
Completely different wiring harnesses
Completely different exhaust system (at least from the engine to the cat)
Significant differences in the suspension - you can reuse some, but not all of the parts you have now.
Different instrument panel.

End result, you are building a car.......You would almost have an easier time buying a good mechanical, but crappy looking 951 and swapping body panels/interior parts from your S.

As was said before ad nauseum, CAN it be done?, most certainly - all it ever takes is time and money - how much time do you want to spend and how much money?

Actual cash value of your car is about $4000 when it is running. You are looking to spend more than that by the time you are done converting, in the end, you have an S model with a nonstandard motor (cash value $0)

If you are dead set that you are going to go through with this, I wish yuo luck, just be very aware of what you are getting yourself into.

AFJuvat

I don't mean any disrespect, but...

Given your experiences with doing your own belt, do you really want to undertake building a turbo'd S? You asked about what the problems are other than $. My answer to that would be: Anything is possible with unlimited time and $.

Also, I think you would be able to sell the engine as is for more $ than you would if you "rebuilt" it yourself. Since no one (myself included) is going to trust you to rebuild an engine to for the sake of learning, and then expect it to work well after you're done.

Spend 6 months and $10k building a turbo that is almost guaranteed to have problems, or spend a month and $10k looking for a nice turbo to buy. I say keep the S, tinker with it if you want, and look at buying a turbo, if you really have $10k+ to spend right now.

Well overkill............

I admire your determination....I would not recommend the conversion.... but if you go through it ...and start it...I will stop the preaching.

The only thing that I want you to do, which is something I struggle with everyday is Patience.

If you want to do the conversion......fine..go ahead and do it, but please read, read, read, read, read, read and if you are still not sure read some more.

Your latest experiment with your timing belt is a result of inpatience.

Do things slowly, if the book says 10 hours it will take you 100.

If you budget $100 multiply that by 5

If you want to toast your S and take it apart.... go ahead.... but be warned you may not be able to get it back together.

The turbo coversion saga will be intersting nonetheless.....

Good luck!

Dude, my 944 is not a garden ornament!

Not a garden ornament?...let's see;

Does it run?.............................................. ..No

Is it likely to run anytime soon?..................No

Will it ever run?..........................................Mayb e never

That makes it an ornament

Britwrench: Your right, it is a garden ornamnet.


Check it out, how much are 951's running for now? If it will make life easier then I will buy a 951. I do not want to spend alot for it because of the fact that i'm going to put a alot of money into it. The most important thing is that the engine has to be in decent condition. I will use the "S" as a parts car. The "S" is in really good condition inside and out. I can atleast guarantee myself a nice interior:) Everything else I will sell. Everything on the 951 is going to be stripped, cleaned, replaced, and modified. I don't care about the money. I don't care about the fact that I am not going to get any of that money back if I sell it. I am not going to sell it, I love this car to much. I guess you can say this is a dream of mine. Like fletch944t, I hope you guyz will be there by my side when it goes down. I will probably need the help.

944SBoyeee: You nailed it bro,...
It will probably be alot easier to build a 951 from a 951. I want my 951 and most of all,... I wan to know my 951 from top to bottom. The thing that killed me with the 944S is the fact that the engine is already maxed out in HP. I could't play with it or modify it. It kinda disappointed me. I like to get my hands dirty. Well, once I get my 951 I will definately be happy. I will be taking it to DE's and auto-x's all the time. Right now I jst have to wait it out a bit. I can't wait to rip the engine out of the "S" and take it apart. I will learn so much from it. Anyways, thanks everyone.

You know, I think i'll sell it instead. If the valves are bent, then that would be the only thing wrong with the car. I could sell it cheap and whatever I get for the car could go towards my bills. What do you guyz think?

While that isn't a bad idea, and will get you out of the car quickly, you really don't want to hear what a 944 goes for with bent valves - $500 You may have more luck selling it in your local paper.

AFJuvat

Just my 2 cents worth, but keep the S as is. When you go swapping stuff, the value drops like a rock. You could buy a 951 for what the swap will cost.

As for hammering on Wolfrpi, when I find my 951, I want him on my side. He probably has more experience with 951's than anyone here, other than Britwrench. They can probably tear one completely apart, and put together in thier sleep with out a manual. They have been there, done that.

If the S is paid for, it isn't costing you anything, so find a 951 and have two P-cars. I would love to have that decision to make. Do i drive the S, or the turbo today? Life would be good!

If the conversion is what you want, everyone will help you all they can, even if they don't agree with it. That's the great thing about this board!

Of course, what you could do is go down to the local junkyard and buy a complete used 944 2-valve engine with computer and put that in. Total cost; a lot less than $1000 and you are driving again. Then you can save up and buy the 951 and the "s" has some resale value.

If you don't do this, it will cost you $$$! It's the LAW!!!! :D