Fuel Additives to Counteract E-85?

[OK-944]

Several years ago, I did a complete reseal of my 85.5's engine. All has been well since, although I am getting a bit of seepage - looks like from the oil cooler. Did not RTV its gasket, but no drips on floor so I'm not that concerned.

My bigger question concerns the longer term, possibly negative effects of modern "E-85" gasoline on the engine and fuel delivery system...and the steps others may have taken to help mitigate these effects.

I do assume that the materials I used to reseal my engine have been reformulated to deal with the negative effects of E-85 - but is this correct?

Generally, I'm not a big fan of fluid (gasoline, oil, coolant) additives - other than a fuel stabilizer for winter storage. But I've been reading about a "Sta-bil Marine 360" additive, which some folks swear by to keep their older engines and gaskets healthy despite the deleterious effects of ethanol - and am tempted to try adding this to my gasoline on an occasional basis.

Any comments? Thanks!

[OK-944]

Correction! I'm not referring to E-85, but the more typical gasoline with an ethanol content ranging from 10 to 15 percent.

[northern_aqs]

Are you not using premium fuel? Where I am, the percentage of ethanol content goes down with the higher the grade of fuel selected (10% for regular, 5% for mid grade, 0% for premium). Even if my car didn't require it in the manual, I would still select premium because my car is stored for 7 month's of the year. Why risk it running a fuel with a component that wasn't on the market when these cars were built?

[v2rocket_aka944]

There is no need to worry about 10-15% ethanol content gasoline.
Here in CA all gas is minimum 10% ethanol, regardless of "octane".
Don't know where you are.

The internet is full of overblown claims and assumptions about the effects of ethanol...even E85 is totally compatible with the 944 fuel system.

You should be replacing seals and hoses simply due to the age of the parts, not because of the fuel used.

[dgcantrell]

Overblown claims of ethanol? I hate it. Although it won't damage most fuel systems made in the past 25-30 years, it is rough as hell on small engine systems like bikes, lawn mowers, and other smaller engines. It hardens plastic flexible fuel lines and makes them brittle. I think it also reacts with aluminum, as in aluminum carburetor bowls. If you let it sit for even a few months like over the winter, it develops some syrupy green gunk that can clog small ports and stick to valve stems on the intakes causing valve strikes under certain conditions.

For most cars, if you drive them regularly, you really should have no issues since you're keeping fresh gas in it. However, if you don't drive it that often, it would be better to get the no-ethanol (if available in your area, it is here in VA). But the bottom line is this. Ethanol adds "zero point zero" benefit or performance increase to gasoline. It's only in there because some lobbyist sold it to the government as a "green feel good" thing. Ethanol subsidies should stop now...

This is what it did to my Yamaha TT350 carb after sitting for 5 months..

[Arizona_928]

Alcohol in the fuel will only effect rubber fuel components.
Hence the use of viton seals in injection pumps. I would be more concerned if you had a CIS 928.

[DannoXYZ]

Originally Posted by dgcantrell

Overblown claims of ethanol? I hate it. Although it won't damage most fuel systems made in the past 25-30 years, it is rough as hell on small engine systems like bikes, lawn mowers, and other smaller engines. It hardens plastic flexible fuel lines and makes them brittle. I think it also reacts with aluminum, as in aluminum carburetor bowls. If you let it sit for even a few months like over the winter, it develops some syrupy green gunk that can clog small ports and stick to valve stems on the intakes causing valve strikes under certain conditions.

For most cars, if you drive them regularly, you really should have no issues since you're keeping fresh gas in it. However, if you don't drive it that often, it would be better to get the no-ethanol (if available in your area, it is here in VA). But the bottom line is this. Ethanol adds "zero point zero" benefit or performance increase to gasoline. It's only in there because some lobbyist sold it to the government as a "green feel good" thing. Ethanol subsidies should stop now...

This is what it did to my Yamaha TT350 carb after sitting for 5 months..

Those effects are most likely not due to alcohol. Have you done a double-blind test with a 2nd set of carbs using non-ethanol fuel?

[v2rocket_aka944]

Ethanol lobby is strong so it is a political decision.

But it does work as a cheap octane-booster for regular gas...I guess cheaper than "other stuff".

I don't know so much about the small engine issues, maybe some get affected and some don't.

My lawnmower gets used once a month or so and gets pump gas mixed with oil to run...usually if I have drained the gas tank of one of my cars I just dump it in the mower...no issues in 20 years...

Originally Posted by dgcantrell

Overblown claims of ethanol? I hate it. Although it won't damage most fuel systems made in the past 25-30 years, it is rough as hell on small engine systems like bikes, lawn mowers, and other smaller engines. It hardens plastic flexible fuel lines and makes them brittle. I think it also reacts with aluminum, as in aluminum carburetor bowls. If you let it sit for even a few months like over the winter, it develops some syrupy green gunk that can clog small ports and stick to valve stems on the intakes causing valve strikes under certain conditions.

For most cars, if you drive them regularly, you really should have no issues since you're keeping fresh gas in it. However, if you don't drive it that often, it would be better to get the no-ethanol (if available in your area, it is here in VA). But the bottom line is this. Ethanol adds "zero point zero" benefit or performance increase to gasoline. It's only in there because some lobbyist sold it to the government as a "green feel good" thing. Ethanol subsidies should stop now...

This is what it did to my Yamaha TT350 carb after sitting for 5 months..

[Arizona_928]

Originally Posted by v2rocket_aka944

Ethanol lobby is strong so it is a political decision.

Yeah it is. It's all corn. multi billion dollar business.

[northern_aqs]

I don't worry about it in my truck or newer Subaru because they don't sit. Up here the fun vehicles sit for most of the year so they all get the non-ethanol varieties.

If ethanol is used as an octane booster, why is the lower grades/ie. lower octane fuels the ones that contain the most? (No snark, legitimate question).

[ltfisher]

I agree with dgcantrell. I have 4 lawnmowers, a couple seedeaters, and 2 small displacement motorcycles. Have had the same carburetor issues with gas including ethanol. In my Yamaha DT175 for instance even running the bike several times per week if the gas in the tank is over a month old the pilot jet in the carb gets plugged. The tank on the bike is spotless, no rust and I use a fuel filter.

So now I've been purchasing aviation fuel for all my small displacement engines. (which uses no ethanol) (they won't allow ethanol in AV-gas) And with the aviation gas no issues at all. Just like it used to be before they started using ethanol in all of our fuel. it is a hassle though getting the AV-gas as I have to drive about 15 miles and can only dispense it into smalll, 5 gallon or less, containers.

[sausagehacker]

I've run E85 in my NA car over the course of almost a year, mostly experimentally with my tuning setup. There's nothing to worry about. We don't have aluminum parts (and even then, effects are overstated) and the rubber is ethanol compliant. Still not happy? Replace the soft fuel lines. Even OEM is ethanol compliant. I just got all Aeroquip stuff for my 951, just because.

Re: octane boosting w/ ethanol

It's true that ethanol is more resistant to knock, that's why you hear about E85 from guys with modified cars a lot, almost always with high boost cars. You can safely run more timing. Even on my NA car, I noticed slightly more top end, but this was just as a test because I could set up my car to run it with 3 button clicks. Why is it in lower grade gas? Because that's fewer additives that the manufacturer of the gasoline has to add during synthesis. Normally they add a known amount of additive that makes the gas less prone to predetonate. They just add more with premium fuel, plus whatever other cocktail of additives. Saves them money, as does using ethanol volume in place of actual fossil fuel. Simple as that.

[Arizona_928]

Originally Posted by northern_aqs

If ethanol is used as an octane booster, why is the lower grades/ie. lower octane fuels the ones that contain the most? (No snark, legitimate question).

Gasoline is not a specific compound. It's a bunch of long chain hydrocarbons. refineries are able to put more crap into the gas while achieving same octane rating by ethyl alcohol. same as everclear.

The reason they make E85 instead of E100 is the deterrent from people drinking it. Untaxed alcohol is an issue when you get to research labs as well. go figure.

[Jfrahm]

I dunno 'bout that. I think around here E85 drops to about E70 in the winter to maintain volatility.

[Arizona_928]

well yeah you have summer vs winter blend, but that also takes into account PM2.5 emissions.
Seriously though. Ever watch top fuel drags?

[dgcantrell]

Danno, this is due to the alcohol. If I use no-ethanol gas, I do NOT (EDITED) have this issue. I've torn this carb down many times over the 22 years I have had it. Never did it look like that until I started running ethanol gas in it.

Correct me if I'm wrong but alcohol burns at a much lower temp and lower compression. It delivers less energy than gas per volume and it basically takes more energy to produce than you get out of using it? When I use no-ethanol gas in my cars, my mileage goes up and the engine runs better. Explain to me again how this is of any benefit?

I remember when this stuff started coming out when I was in college back in the late 80's, early 90's. As a young optimistic college kid, this was a good thing because it's "green". Well, we tore that theory all to hell in Chemistry class. However, the masses believe it and the politicians have been paid.....er....lobbied by the Corn Growers and they, the Growers, are getting paid by subsidies from the government. If I had my way, that would go away immediately.

[Arizona_928]

It's because it's "green" lol benefit is renewables, not dependent on foreign oil is what the media pushed. But then again we were the largest producer of oil last year in the world.

We are lied to, and forced to use. Can't beat that, right?

[v2rocket_aka944]

You use more of it to make the same power as straight gasoline.
But ethanol content gas burns "cleaner" relative to emissions standards, which is why they really pushed it.

The US as a country has the most aggressive emissions laws in the world, led of course by California, which mandates 10% minimum ethanol content. So cars built for US market since the 1980s are made to withstand 10% or so ethanol mixture in case they end up in CA...

[sausagehacker]

Ethanol has a lower density than fuel. But because you need more of it (relative to oxygen in the air) to achieve a stoichiometric burn, you end up actually end up with more energy than gasoline, at a given AFR. But you need to be tuned accordingly to take advantage of that...software as well as hardware, such as larger injectors and possibly a higher CR. you're flowing a lot more fuel relative to energy released, so gas mileage will decrease significantly. Ethanol does burn cooler though, and the additional mass injected per cycle can help turbo spool. Which again is why it's a hit with high boost guys. Definitely pros and cons. I wouldn't recommend going through all the work on an NA car.

[Alexb944]

daddy would you like some sausage.... sorry i have nothing of value to add.