Help! Miata vs 944...

[OPRN]

Originally Posted by v2rocket_aka944

Bob...guess that makes a 914 the last "sports car" Porsche made?

Nope! According to flash968's definition it is not. It has not one but TWO luggage compartments and it is not a true convertible. It is a Targa with a removable roof panel.

Sorry.

[flash968]

no - i have no issue with a true targa (no left and right connections fore/aft) as it is also a convertible, albeit not in the sense that was originally meant. there was no other form of removable top when the term was first originated. if it were, i am certain that it would have been included.

there is no particular limit to the number of luggage compartments. the limit is in the abilities of those compartments. the idea is that it is not particularly useful. a good rule of thumb is that if you can fit a baby stroller in there, it's not a sportscar.

the 914 fits the bill, as it is not a useful or utilitarian car in any sense of the term. it is purely for sport, has no back seat, and the roof comes off

[OPRN]

Does that mean that the Dodge Caravan Sport R/T is not a sports car?? I am shocked! Surely a good corporate citizen like Chrysler would not attempt to dupe us into thinking we are buying something that is not really "as advertised"?

[thomasryan]

an ideological subversion.

I always thought a 914 was classified as a roadster, a horse suitable for traveling. a longer wheelbase than the 24/44/68 series and also the 911 of the day.

[OPRN]

It looks like everyone has their own definition of what a sports car is, I wonder if there really is a definitive answer.

[petrolhead611]

The Dodge Caravan passes the top hat test, and is therefore definitely not a sportscar.

[CatsEyes]

We could do with a philosopher in the house! A logical positivist, maybe. This whole definition-of-a-sportscar debate is goofy, and feels like a bad pub argument around midnight.

Clearly people use the word 'sportscar' in all sorts of different ways. One prevailing US usage - I have now discovered! - seems to be that it has to be a petite roadster. I presume that's an industry-based deifinition, aimed at the consmuer-market.

By which definition, as many here have pointed out, all sorts of cars that would be useless on a track (a base-line Audi TT, for instance) are 'sportscars'. But most of those that are track-able are not. And few race-cars outside Formula 1 are 'sportscars'. This is a definition that will sell cars, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

In this country I was always taught that a 'sportscar' is a car that was designed for track use first, and road use second. A car you can use in 'motorsports'. I believe that is how Porsche has used the word 'sportscar' in its literature over the decades. Indeed, it was the precise design brief of the 911: a car you track (successfully!) in the morning, and take you Grandma to do the shopping in the afternoon.

But then, pub-arguments around midnight usually turn into brawls, so I'm off home!

[petrolhead611]

Would perchance this Logical Positivist be from the University of Wallabaloo and also be in charge of the Sheepdip?
A Monty Python fan,apologies

[ChrisRL]

Have had both Miata and 944.
Have autocrossed both Miata and 944
Have toured with both Miata and 944

Miata - smaller, lighter, obviously quick (high power/weight) but definitely a momentum car when on a race course with Porsches (Willow Springs Raceway for both of mine). The short shifter is a dream. The 94-97 model with the bigger motor and the LSD was the deal for me.

944S2 - bigger, heavier, more power, more forgiving, easier to drive sloppy and still get good performance out of it. When I drove this car on the track using momentum tactics against the more powerful Porsches, that was a lot of fun!

Both Miata and 944S2 have great front-rear weight distribution, and, if both are sprung correctly, there's just the 1.8L v the 3.0L to compare.

Miata v 944 (series 1) is not really fair since the 944's gearbox isn't engineered like the Miata's is and so the Miata will beat it off the line pretty much every time. However, the 944 (S1) will catch up if the straightaway is long enough, so on tracks where there's more straights then turns, the 944 is better.

As a daily driver, the Miata holds substantially less and is a 2+0 (two seater car). The 944 is a 2+2 and will, at a pinch, hold one or two people squished up in the back seat for a short trip, or if the back seat is folded down, a heck of a lot of luggage.

The Miata, not. But it's less gas, quicker and easier to park, etc., just a smaller car in general.

Parts wise not a lot to choose between them, if you wrench yourself. If you have to get outside help, then you'd better choose a Miata first, cause the Porsche mechanics, especially around here, will try to take advantage at *every* chance you give them. 'cause it's a Porsche, of course. They turn their noses up at the 944s, but don't charge a penny less to service them.

I learned to wrench on my Miata, BTW, there are most excellent books and forums and clubs around.

Of course, this Porsche forum is pretty darned hard to beat too!

Best
Chris

[Sehrgut]

Get a grip! Function before form. My '97 Miata M edition served well. "84 944 NA still smokes 'em all! Miata v Porsche? If you have to ask, you don't need to bother!

[flash968]

how???

the 1997 1.8 liter version had almost the same power as the 1984 944 (136 vs 143), but didn't drag around the extra 800 lbs. it also had modern electronics, which made the power more effective.

miata 0-60 was 7.6. 84 944 was a full second slower.

top speed of the miata was 130. 84 944 was the same.

1/4 mile speeds were 15.9 for the miata and 16.4 for the 944.

miata got 30mpg. 944 got 26.

cornering for the miata is at .90g. .82 for the 944.

same 50/50 weight distribution.

in every way measurable, the miata will spank the 944

that is, until you try to load your groceries

[ChrisRL]

That was my experience also, Flash.

The Miata is definitely a momentum car, as is the 944S1.
Both have problems pulling out of hairpins, in terms of straight horsepower.
Both have 50/50 weight distro so they can be driven with momentum conserving techniques very well.
My 944s1 had problems keeping up with my Miata M out of corners because of the power/weight ratio. However, at or near the end of the straightaway, the 944 had the edge.

More so with my 944S2, it's a 3.0L engine but it's a heavier car still.

All bets are off if we're talking about race mods though. Stripping both cars down to minimum weight, changing clutches and flywheels out, etc., mean that the 944 loses a lot more than the Miata, simply because there's a lot more that the 944 is carrying around in the first place, and therefore more to lose.

A stripped 944S2 would be a very cool performance car, add a turbo and/or supercharger and that might be fun!

[brian19600]

You could think totally outside the box and buy a Fiero.

[flash968]

there is a pretty cool little bolt on supercharger kit for the miata that pushes it up to about 240hp. doing the power to weight math, that would mean you would have to have about 330hp in the 944. not possible with that engine. even a supercharged 968 engine in that car wouldn't do it, and that would add weight, making it even harder.

2 very different cars though. the miata will outperform the 944 in every aspect. it just won't be quite as practical. it really depends on what you want.

[ChrisRL]

True, Flash. At that point better to have a Formula car, which I also owned and ran. Or a shifter kart.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by flash968

there is a pretty cool little bolt on supercharger kit for the miata that pushes it up to about 240hp. doing the power to weight math, that would mean you would have to have about 330hp in the 944. not possible with that engine. even a supercharged 968 engine in that car wouldn't do it, and that would add weight, making it even harder.

2 very different cars though. the miata will outperform the 944 in every aspect. it just won't be quite as practical. it really depends on what you want.

there are so many stupid simple and cheap ways to make more power in miatas its crazy. from ecotec swaps, turbos and superchargers, k swap, LS swap, even ITBs/cams/all motor builds on a 1.8vvt motor makes very healthy power.

if the problem with the miata is power, thats literally the easiest problem to solve with that car.

its probably one of the most modded cars in the world. makes it stupid cheap and easy to do whatever you want with them. want to rally a miata? you can, and you can mostly buy the parts off the shelf. want to road race a miata? you can, with all parts off the shelf. want to ice race a miata? you can, with off the shelf parts. want to autcorss a miata? easiest thing in the world.

a 944 is categorically more expensive and far more custom parts in order to do any of these things.

[ChrisRL]

In the world of Formula car racing, the top of the pile is Formula 1.
These cars are very few and far between, and of course, cost a lot of money to own and operate. Spare parts are custom made, one by one.

The bottom of the pile is Formula V.
These cars are plentiful, the major component parts are restricted to stock 1975 model Volkswagen air-cooled parts, the wheels are restricted to the stock tall and skinny ones. They are relatively plentiful and cheap to buy, cost very little to buy and maintain, and spare parts are numerous and still quite readily available. Lots of wheel-to-wheel competition, since the cars are matched up evenly by the restrictions of the formula, whereas in the other classes, races are pretty much a procession, with the most expensive classes leading the pack.

So.
How much money do you want to spend, and how fast do you want to go?

[OPRN]

So if I may - back to the definition of a sports car - I thought I had found one finally! I bought it and took it home only to find that in spite it having no roof, no luggage space and being completely useless for anything practical, the sucker has a back seat!!




Struck out again!

[Sehrgut]

How about this? I just bought a 2000 Mitsubishi Eclipse GT as a winter beater car. 3.0 with great power. I loved my Miata, my 944 is the best. Just remember - Porsche - There is no substitute!