1980 928 resurrection

[aluminum]

Hello Forum readers :>)
I find a lot of great information here on this forum and thank all the helpful Posters .
perhaps I can do the same as a long time Mechanic But Most certainly not a Porsche Expert .
Well I have a 1990 Porsche C4 911 and have a lot of fun with that car >> But some month's ago I happened upon a 1980 928 I believe a US Model and have some Questions about what I like to call It's resurrection.
The car is a non runner of about 15 years but from a warm area of central California.
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(1) Can anyone tell me what HP Motor I have > the Motor number is (one over the other ) Did 1980 have a S Model ? or not ? I have not seen a spoiler on any 1980.
Motor number: M28/13 Build date 8/79 5 Spd trans
8100038
Water Pump :
Got it running finally and the water pump started making noise > I noted that the Motor Got Hot although the radiator is new and full of water > I was thinking to pull the thermostat However then the water Pump started Making a lot of noise
And then Strange as can be ??? I noted that the motor started running at about about 1/4 of the Gauge nice and cool >> I could tell working on it that it was running cool now also ( was almost as if the Pump was seized up > Motor got hot then all of a sudden the Pump broke free and the water ran and cooled the motor but made noise ? weird .
Water Pump questions :
(2) does the crankshaft pulley Retaining bolt remove counterclockwise ?
( Not a left hand thread here is it ? )
(3) Can I simply just place the Trans in 1 St Gear and Lock the brake and remove the bolt ( Impact Gun or beaker Bar ) done this on so many cars never a problem.
But perhaps this is different on a Porsche .
(4) I read on the Forum that when the Pump makes noise the Impeller hits the block and ruins the Motor is this possible ? ( I can suspect some scratch damage and the Like but well this mean the motor well no longer cool with a new pump ?
(5) is this Pump to Block damage the reason why some recommended the Plastic Impeller Type pump rather then the Original Porsche Brass Pump ?
Timing Belt and marks:
Now I usually place the motor on Number 1 cylinder up on compression and try to find the timing mark however with the Specks at 3K RPMs humm
I well just place the Number 1 Piston up ( Pass side front )
Pull everything Bag and mark the bolts Etc
My Question :
(6) Where are the marks on the Cams ?
Must you remove the belt to see them ?
I understand the cam's well move as you remove the belt
Thanks for any advice / Help as I want to try to get this 928 back on the road again.
I test drove it about 1 Mile and most of the major parts work fine
Then I read about the damage you may suffer from the water Pump to Block > I am hoping this is not a end of the car ? Most certainly I don't want to replace the motor.

[Pete R]

1 about 220hp when new if it has 200 by now you'll be lucky
2 normal bolt
3 impact will take it right off, I couldn't lock it down enough for breaker bar, spun wheel with brake on
4 don't know, never had that issue
5 yes, that's why they like the plastic impeller
6 there's notches of the cam gears that line up with marks on the housing. Hopefully someone can post a pic or find one yourself on line there's a lot of good timing belt info out there. read "backfired and stopped running" on here.
learn about changing a belt, it's easy but requires some knowledge. I suspect your motors okay. It could have got hot and just helped unstick the thermostat too.

[aluminum]

Thank You Pete :-)
>>> Yes a 273 CID Motor > 4.5 I guess
>>> Now I know not to turn the bolt ( Crank Pulley ) the wrong way >>> <<<
and that a Impact should do the Job ( I am very careful with Impact Guns )
Most Often I turn down the pressure Hit it a bit >> if no go turn it up a bit >>
Impact Gun's are a great tool used right >> Nice tight Socket and not over Kill on the pressure.
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SO ? the Cam Timing ? weird You line up the Cam Marks with a Mark on the block ?
I assume you do this with the Crank on the Timing mark at Top dead Center ?
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This bothers me some I well spend some time lining the marks up before I remove the timing belt if possible.
If I understand ? You just Line up the Cam's with some mark on the block or Housing then with the Crank on the mark install the belt and adjust the tension
Guess that sounds Easy Really >> I had to Dial in the Cams on the 1990 911 I rebuilt ( Dial Indicator on the Valve )
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So I think I well replace the Crank Seal / buy a new Pump ( try to find a good one New but around $200 LASO ? I am seeing a lot of them at $217 ) Rebuild the what is it a "Oil Pressure Tension device " ? and I understand some Plastic parts >> Not sure where to get a good Belt ?
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Thanks Peat Know of a Good Belt ( Brand ) for the 16 Valve motor ?

[aluminum]

These Photos Clearly how the Cam Marks Peat I see what you mean
I hope this is OK to do on this forum ? ( Post a link to a 928 Porsche Cam Timing Photo )
if Not I am learning >>
index

[Pete R]

the cam marks aren't on the block. they are a triangle shaped extrusion on the cam housing. for the motor to be at tdc the o/t on the harmonic balance must line up with the mark (some have a finger on the water pump some have a slash mark on the plastic cover) as well as the cam notches lining up .
you'll want to do all the rollers, inspect the tensioner and wear on all gears,and change out the tensioner arm pivot bushing and possibly the bolt if it's worn. seriously read that thread I mentioned just about everything is covered there and there's pics. I always use a porsche belt, I know I over pay for it and could just use a conti or something but I'm stuck on it for some reason.. ( it think you need the square tooth one so make sure you get the right one)

[lfausty]

please how bout pic of car and eng bay, keep posting through your tasks. Eventually your long paragraphs will whittle to one word sweet! lol.

[Landseer]

The water pump uses its casting for one half of the volute.
The block is the back half of the volute.

We have seen many failures of water pumps, mainly rebuilts, that end with the shaft and/or metal impeller shifting. The impeller then machines the block.

The waterpumps often fail after sitting. Poor design / poor parts for the stress of the application.

So, even if your sitter is now running cool, it would be wise to pull down the front of the engine and replace the pump with a new one from a known source (never ebay).

[harborman]

To do the T-belt, there is a nice written procedure you can print out, possibly on Rennlist. You need to read it! You will need a few special tools, T-belt tensioner gauge, fly wheel lock. It's a little more complicated than just removing and replacing the belt. Before removing the belt, you will need to place the cams in the right position then lock in place. Get the procedure for doing the job.

[aluminum]

Thank You "harborman" and every one else >>
I am not going to tear the motor down until next week as I am in the SF Bay Area for a week until my return to the Mendocino Coast where I live in Little River CA,
the Can Belt setting is the only thing that botters me really and perhaps the filling / priming of the Oil tensioner > with ? 90 wt gear oil ? weird .
I would expect the oil Pressure to just fill it up ?
However I understand to get oil inside of it to make it Oiled all ready ?
Yes ! Others I know Ebay does not make parts but rather sells them like many others
Just what sort of belt is used on a 1980 US 928 273 CID Motor ? I have heard her a square tooth belt is the correct one . " 928 105 157 00 " is that not the Porsche Part number ?
Question : about the 16 valve motor
(1) Any One know the top 3 Belts recommended ? 928 105 157 00
(2) Can the Oil Pan be remover without jacking up the motor / removing the Motor mounts or disconnecting them ? ( I know this is not hard to do however )
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I expect this way I could simply Pressure wash the front of the motor then the oil pan as the sludge well drop down some >> OR I could plug off the drain areas also but i still would like to clean out the Pan anyway no big deal .
Be Nice to get all that Bla Bla Bla off of the motor " Sludge "
It seemed to run just fine as I tested it 1 mile >>
Now I wonder if I ruined the motor with the Porsche Brass water Pump Impeller into the Motor >> Nice thinking Porsche <<
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(3) Looks like the tensioner tool is the simple way to set the Belt once I can understand where to place them >. I think I well just mark them before I remove the belt on Top Dead Center >
( I read about the rotate 2 x clockwise only and such and a additional 2 x should I need to >> always 2 x)
Wow the Forum is great >> Lot's of nice people sharing Long standing Knowledge
Not just pushing part's

[Pete R]

The tensioners are not pressure fed. You will have the early tensioner that is self contained. The later tensioner has to be filled once it's mounted. Theres a pocket of oil between the block and tensioner that requires a gasket. The oil in 928 tensioners is mearliy to provide lubrication for the bi metal discs and to provide heat transfer between the engine and tensioner, it actually has nothing to do with the actual belt tension.

as for #3 there are specific marks that they must be set at. marking where they are now will only work provided they are correct now. if it's off by a tooth on a stretched belt then you have to use the next tooth with the new belt.. now your off by 2. just find the right ones

[anakilat]

I just finished a TB/WP job on my 80 Euro a couple of months ago.

You will need the tensioning tool and I needed the flywheel lock because I had to almost bend a fender to get that crank bolt loose. Impact wrench did nothing. Two friends and an extended breaker bar finally got it loose.

Spend the money to get a new Laso water pump, just trust me on this OK.

Replace the rollers.

Rebuild the tensioner - this is mostly just cleaning it out. Be sure to keep the washer stack in the proper order and orientation or it won't work right. The boot on our model is difficult to find.

Removing the belt is a PITA. You must remove the alternator and loosen or remove the PS pump to get the left side cover off. I coined several new curse words during this stage and I must apologize to Porsche engineers for what I called them.

I removed my radiator because I didn't want to hurt it. I really gave me a lot of working room. BTW, don't forget to drain the block or at some point you'll get an antifreeze bath.

Be very careful with all bolts. Use anti-seize compound when re-assembling and pay attention to recommended torque.

The harmonic balance lettering/numbers should be able to be read while standing at the front of the engine - it's easy to put it on backwards.

The timing marks will be easy. Pull the plugs and turn the engine with a breaker bar until the 0|T mark lines up with the red pointer. Look at the right/left cam gears and find the casting protrusions. they should be fairly close to the notches in the back side of the cam gears. If they aren't now because of belt stretch, that's OK, you can turn them a little to align them when you install the new belt. Mine were about a half notch off and they lined up dead on when I reassembled. Install the crank lock.

Ask questions about everything. The folks on here have done this before and are a great help - ask me how I know, lol.

[aluminum]

Thank You :
Peat R ( and everyone )
" The tensioners are not pressure fed. You will have the early tensioner that is self contained."
NOW THAT is good Information !! so I must be very careful and load I believe 90 Wt Gear oil in to the Tensioner then ?
OR ? : DO I Have this wrong > I well try to research how to do this correctly
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"anakilat"
Great Post >> I learned a lot here Thanks Much >> Yes I was thinking a Laso Pump >
and the Rollers ( not sure what the roller's are But I imagined they have something to do with the belt tension Yes ? humm
I am surprised a Impact Gun did not Brake the Crank Pulley Nut > Perhaps the Air Pressure was low or a larger Gun >> Must be careful here >> I have found in the past to use a
" cheater bar " ( piece of pipe over the end of a Breaker Bar ) about perhaps 2 ' to 3 ' long
in this case you may need to lock the flywheel but if a std trans in gear with not all that much pressure rear wheels on the ground brake on unless It's really stuck on I would expect it to brake loose But if not just lock the flywheel .
I well go by Local Salvage / Parts House here in the Bay Area ( Hayward CA. ) and get some parts for it while I am in " Da Big City " I would mention the names of the places but don't really know the Forum rules yet >> several good ones in the Bay Area >>
I noted (2) 928's at a U Pull type salvage Yard when in Las Vegas a month ago one was fresh and complete ! > I should have grabbed the Brain and the Ignition Control box Perhaps <
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Looking forward to the tear Down when I return >
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Thanks all for the Help !!!!!!

[riber.bentsen]

I have a spare early boot (rubber grommet) for your tensioner. I'll send it to you for the shipping

(Bought the wrong one, hate to see it go to waste since they are scarce).

[aluminum]

riber.bentsen Thanks for the offer ! :-) long way shipping expect I can find one here US > if lucky >
Looked at Water Pumps still on Motors at salvage Yard today ( all 928s' and now understand
( picture worth thousand words ) why the Water Pump go's out so easy . I looked at 3 and they were all Bad < Grind like feel / excess End play and Noise at just hand speed turning .
The Wheel the Belt turns is Quite Large > wherein the Bearing in the Pump is very Small .
The Bearing just can't hold up to all that pressure over time simple .
As with Most Cars are area's that are bad >>
Only thing with this one other then It's bad is the location of the Pump ? rather then a 30 / 45 Min job It's a Big mess like the electronics in every Porsche I have had . Don't get me wrong >> all cars have this issue > Just Different Issues . Just my 2 cent's

[aluminum]

Photos of tear down
not sure about uploading here Presume HTML Code works ?
Water Pump with rusted Impeller ( it froze stopping belt )

Think I can clean that up ? humm

Shot of the belt backside rubing the non spinning pump

rusty looking block

after wire brush NO DAMAGE AT ALL

[aluminum]

Is this a 1980 type ? or has it been updated anyone know ?

front

this should do it

pump number

has a Steel impeller i scraped it off and checked
well Its a core

I got a great deal on a Pump with a Ceramic or plastic type Impeller
Let me know if you want photos Etc ( price is right )

[Pete R]

That's the old style tensioner, The newer ones have a fill and bleeder screw on them.

[MPDano]

Please try and keep your topic in the same thread. I answered your question in another thread you started. It will start getting confusing to others in the future.

[aluminum]

OH Ok Old style tensioner then Peat thanks
Sorry: MP DanoI started the Timing Mark Post as I felt it was different then the "resurrection"
but perhaps not >>

[MPDano]

Originally Posted by aluminum

OH Ok Old style tensioner then Peat thanks
Sorry: MP DanoI started the Timing Mark Post as I felt it was different then the "resurrection"
but perhaps not >>

No worries, I just see double' postinge' of the Water Pumpe' pics. Anyways, it's just so the future 928'ers can gain knowledge and fixes easily when following a single thread. Nothing more frustrating is using the search and finding the perfect thread to resolve your issue with no topic finishing answer because it was answered in another same user posted similar thread. <--- hope that makes sense.

I'm not a Mod, just here to try and help